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The deep roots of modern resentment

economist.com

111–120 of 123 posts

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a name for this which escapes me. It happens to individuals a lot. It goes like this: "In today's news, Person A has made a sizable, significant contribution of Something to help Subset B of The Overwhelming Problem . But, one has to ask: What about The Rest of The Overwhelming Problem ? Why doesn't Person A care about any of that!?" The issue is that you provided the media with a headline they need, but not…

It's Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics. https://blog.jaibot.com/the-copenhagen-interpretation-of-eth... "The Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics says that when you observe or interact with a problem in any way, you can be blamed for it. At the very least, you are to blame for not doing more. Even if you don’t make the problem worse, even if you make it slightly better, the ethical burden of the problem falls on you…

Thanks for sharing this. It is now bookmarked at the top of my "wisdom" folder :)

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#112
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If communism could just be boiled down to "laborers own the means of production" then what stops that from happening within capitalism? What prevents people from banding together to create factories that they then work in, for example?

These factories must compete with others which value profit as the highest motive. So because there is still a profit motive, the co-op factory must optimise on two fronts: money in order to keep itself afloat and still purchase the required capital (and labour power), and further to operate by "ethical" principles toward the workers (whatever those may be). Thus co-ops will have a tendency to fail within capitalism,…

You forget what profit is. Profit is (the monetary value of) the benefit to society of the product being produced.

Now when you say "must optimize on two fronts: money in order to keep itself afloat and" ... that first one is NOT optional. If that first one is not a prerequisite to having the factory than that factory (or company, or ...) is a net loss for the economy, society, for the world as a whole. You seem to imply it is tenable for a society to have most or all companies operate under such conditions, and of course it is not.

That is of course the alleged problem with communism. Profit in itself is not a necessity, but having profit >=0 over the long run IS a necessity (but obviously for company stability having a decent positive profit most years is very much not optional, and any exceptions must be made for investment purposes, not for any other reason). Otherwise, colloquially, you're "eating your seed grain".

That is the problem, right there. Communist economists see communism as a system that can work because people would still generate profit. People, even communist activists themselves, see communism as a system that can deny the real world. And under those circumstances, of course communism fails. Under a communist system as understood in economics departments, profit would still be an existential necessity for any company.

So if avoiding profit and "instead get X" is why you're a communist, stop right there. That's not communism, that's fantasy. No matter what X is. Stop defending anything remotely like that as an advantage of a communist system, because it is not. The real world need for more valuable output than input from any long-term process, applies just as much to communism as to capitalism, mercantilism, ...

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Economist has previously mused that the old distinction between "left" and "right" isn't as relevant any more. Instead, the extreemes on both the left and right have a lot in common, they're both "drawbridge up:" don't like free trade or open borders.

That's classic horseshoe theory nonsense.

Surely you can explain more than that

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#114
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Raise the minimum wage to $20/hour. Watch as "serious economists" lie about: * All of the jobs that will actually not disappear. * All of the prices that will actually not rise (by much). And try really really hard to pretend that: * Raising the minimum wage doesn't channel profits into the pockets of workers. What surprises me isn't that they lie. What surprises me is that people continue to believe them.

Out of curiosity, what do you suppose are the long-term effects of raising minimum wage? If you were a landlord managing an apartment building, how much do you charge for a unit? If all of your tenants suddenly make twice as much money as they did, how long before you double their rent? If a McDonalds needs to pay all of its employees twice as much money, how long before they double their food prices to make up the d…

>Out of curiosity, what do you suppose are the long-term effects of raising minimum wage?

* An increase in inflation but nowhere near enough to offset the rise in wages at the lower end.

* An increase in growth as the money multiplier effect kicks in.

* No real change in employment.

* Share prices fall and lowered earnings projections for classes of business that rely on minimum waged labor.

* As a sort of general guide, look at Australia.

>If you were a landlord managing an apartment building, how much do you charge for a unit? If all of your tenants suddenly make twice as much money as they did, how long before you double their rent?

It depends. This does not happen in a vacuum. If there are a lot of apartments coming on the market at the same time rent could stay the same or even go down.

Every business is subject to competition which would moderate the effect of inflation and tons of businesses that manufacture often respond to an increase in demand by raising production rather than prices (e.g. car manufacturing).

If it went up to $20 I'd project something like 4% inflation.

>If a McDonalds needs to pay all of its employees twice as much money, how long before they double their food prices to make up the difference?

If you want to see what happens to McDonalds, look at Australia:

http://uk.businessinsider.com/mcdonalds-in-australia-vs-amer...

They A) raised the prices, B) raise the quality, C) actually kept the big mac price more or less the same, C) are facing competition from nicer restaurants (people have more disposable income and use it in restaurants other than el cheapo mcdonalds).

>I feel like the working poor in this country get a terrible deal in this world - we definitely need to make conditions better. But does raising minimum wage actually do that in the long run?

Yes.

>Or does it just increase inflation and destroy any savings the poor might have?

The poor have debts, not savings. Demand pull inflation caused by increased wages is just about the best possible outcome for them, but it is HORRIBLE for the rich and the rich have a very well oiled propaganda machine. Hence the "why don't you propose solutions" crowd and the downvotes on actual solutions ^^.

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Raise the minimum wage to $20/hour. Watch as "serious economists" lie about: * All of the jobs that will actually not disappear. * All of the prices that will actually not rise (by much). And try really really hard to pretend that: * Raising the minimum wage doesn't channel profits into the pockets of workers. What surprises me isn't that they lie. What surprises me is that people continue to believe them.

A significant rise of the minimum wage would rapidly accelerate the ongoing process of automation making people unemployable. Already there are swaths of jobs that could be done better by machines but currently it's cheaper to hire a "cheap brown person" as the parent post says by outsourcing it. For example, the manufacture of clothing and footwear which currently employs many millions of people worldwide, mostly in…

>There will always be more desires for new jobs/tasks that could be done - but the market price for them will be below the minimum wage

That's a brave and entirely unsourced claim.

Given that this never happened in the past (e.g when almost the entire workforce was automated out of farm work), why are you so confident it will happen in the future?

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#116
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Raise the minimum wage to $20/hour. Watch as "serious economists" lie about: * All of the jobs that will actually not disappear. * All of the prices that will actually not rise (by much). And try really really hard to pretend that: * Raising the minimum wage doesn't channel profits into the pockets of workers. What surprises me isn't that they lie. What surprises me is that people continue to believe them.

>Raise the minimum wage to $20/hour. Watch as "serious economists" lie appears a bit of a strawman argument. Googling "$20 minimum wage" the only thing on page one is an article explaining the obvious that people would lose jobs if you did. http://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2013/02/20/why-shouldnt-we...

>explaining the obvious that people would lose jobs

That is neither obvious nor is it true. It is the opposite of what is observed experimentally. When the effect of minimum wage hikes is measured across state borders employment remains static.

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Raise the minimum wage to $20/hour. Watch as "serious economists" lie about: * All of the jobs that will actually not disappear. * All of the prices that will actually not rise (by much). And try really really hard to pretend that: * Raising the minimum wage doesn't channel profits into the pockets of workers. What surprises me isn't that they lie. What surprises me is that people continue to believe them.

> Raise the minimum wage to $20/hour. I don't know how you came to the conclusion of western liberalism being against raising the minimum wage when it's been a core tenet of their platforms for over a decade now. But to $20 an hour is something neither liberal nor conservative has EVER advocated for as until there is a public uproar for it, both will always side with corporate interests. That said, your proposition i…

I don't quite believe I'm hearing somebody say "aside from one of the 3 Presidential candidates who were all in the news constantly, nobody said this so nobody has EVER advocated for it".

The fact that the corporatist extremists ("moderates" like Obama and Clinton) squeeze this kind of idea from the public discourse is exactly what led to declining incomes which in turn is what made people furious enough to vote for Trump.

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#118
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These factories must compete with others which value profit as the highest motive. So because there is still a profit motive, the co-op factory must optimise on two fronts: money in order to keep itself afloat and still purchase the required capital (and labour power), and further to operate by "ethical" principles toward the workers (whatever those may be). Thus co-ops will have a tendency to fail within capitalism,…

You forget what profit is. Profit is (the monetary value of) the benefit to society of the product being produced. Now when you say "must optimize on two fronts: money in order to keep itself afloat and" ... that first one is NOT optional. If that first one is not a prerequisite to having the factory than that factory (or company, or ...) is a net loss for the economy, society, for the world as a whole. You seem to i…

>Profit is (the monetary value of) the benefit to society of the product being produced.

No. Monetary value is not perfect measure of utility, because market demand is weighted by wealth.

A luxury yacht for one individual clearly provides nowhere near as much utility to them as an equivalently priced quantity of food would provide to a bunch of homeless people, but the market prices it as such because the individual is richer. If we could magically swap the yacht for the food, everything else being the same, society would be better off as a result.

We allow this inequality of demand because it is what drives the supply side towards efficiency, and for the most part I think this is a reasonable compromise.

But we should not confuse profit with utility.

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the need for unskilled labor has dropped precipitously" here, the need for unskilled labor has dropped precipitously here

That's only because unskilled labor has become much more expensive here (unions, safety regulations, overtime, etc).

No, the need has gone away. Take, for example, moving a few tons of concrete rubble a couple hundred feet. The way it used to be done was to have a group of men hammering it into movable chunks, and another group of men carrying the chunks by hand. Now, you just use a Bobcat. One man can do the work of twenty.

Any job that requires a lot of muscle and not much brain has been more or less wiped out. That's a lot of jobs.

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#120
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You and germinalphrase should check your emails. I've given detailed answers on how to do all of this and addressed your points.

I'm sad to read this, because I was hoping you would be willing to share the ideas in a public forum.

You didn't miss anything.

One of the things I've been working to understand the with regard to the continued support of the President is how can I see a set of things and someone else can see a set of things and we draw two diametrically opposed conclusions from it.

So far a consistent them has been ideas which are like the ones suggested by the GP which are both simple to say, clearly would solve some great ill if they were possible to do, and disconnected from reality in a fundamental way. Our GP suggests a unilateral quintupling of the minimum wage (as an example).

I can see how such a suggestion is highly attractive to someone who hasn't learned or thought about how wages get set and the limits of the ability to arbitrarily control those things. I suspect it would help to get more coverage of Venezuela into the consciousness of these people because it demonstrates some of the effects of not understanding how markets or economies work can affect everyday people.

There are lessons there for both sides of this discussion, both for people who advocate a leadership that promises them quick and simple fixes, and for people who believe that rationality will successfully displace their support for a bad actor. Neither of those things are true.

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