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The deep roots of modern resentment

economist.com

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Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#51

Post by soundwave106 »

EekSnakePond wrote: post #19
compiler-guy wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't a proposal to replace capitalism, that is a small detail of a proposal. A single sentence that is a kernel of an idea (and probably a good one), but far from a sufficient argument. Please give an alternative proposal. A link is fine.

> That isn't a proposal to replace capitalism Put down the Marxism for 5 seconds and follow my original premise all the way to it's logical end. - Make the slaves as expensive as the natives. - Why would you need slaves in this scenario? - You wouldn't. - If slaves and natives are equal cost, then machines are given incentives to outperform both. - Western liberalism is completely flipped on its head in a world where…

Your usage of "slaves" seems way too strong to me. From my perspective, most immigrants are seeking economic opportunity voluntarily.

This phenomenon is a sort of "global labor arbitrage" and it is perhaps right to argue that industry is exploiting this. Also, there are indeed also certain pockets of immigrant labor dominated industry where the conditions for workers have been so bad, "slavery" might be somewhat applicable. But calling migrants universally slaves to capitalism? I can't see that.

Furthermore, at least recently in the United States, not all immigrants are of the "cheap" variety. (http://www.forbes.com/sites/karstenstrauss/2017/01/20/the-to...)

And, even if you want to fix this global labor arbitrage, figuring out how will be hard (at least, to do it without making the problem worse). Historically, government enforced attempts at egalitarian economies have worked out rather poorly.

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#52

Post by EekSnakePond »

andrepd wrote: post #48
EekSnakePond wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That isn't a proposal to replace capitalism Put down the Marxism for 5 seconds and follow my original premise all the way to it's logical end. - Make the slaves as expensive as the natives. - Why would you need slaves in this scenario? - You wouldn't. - If slaves and natives are equal cost, then machines are given incentives to outperform both. - Western liberalism is completely flipped on its head in a world where…

Maybe if you weren't so brazenly agressive and didn't begin every comment with a derisive remark people would pay more attention to you. I know we all must seem very silly and insignificant in comparison to your massive intellect that you can but roll your eyes, but bear with us, will you? Sheesh.

I've been having this argument for decades and I've been called every name in the book, been doxexd, and have had my livelihood threatened multiple times by your fellow sacred cow worshippers.

My aggression is preemptive because I know how the conversation always ends, no matter what tone is taken: The sacred cow worshippers swarms, and the heretic is destroyed. This is how this conversation ALWAYS pans out.

Always. Without exception.

So, If I'm going to get destroyed no matter how this plays out, consider my aggression an indicator that I firmly intend to attack back if you engage in mimetic hostility.

Now, with that said: here's how you end the slave/native arbitrage:

- Set minimum wage between $25-$40 an hour.

- Fix the H1B system so it stops acting as corporate welfare in the form of the cheapest labor of least resistance.

- Allow farm workers to unionize

- Loosen up commercial/industrial restrictions on housing projects and poor areas in proximity of gentrified areas and allow them to produce and manufacture goods and services to sell directly to the newly gentrified locations.

- Raise taxes on corporations who rely on an external workforce.

- Raise interest rates and force the popping of the Silicon Valley bubble AND give incentive for municipal bonds to experiment with binding autonomous labor to harvesting, mining, and construction, forcing Silicon Valley to chase actual profits in the countryside instead of filter bubble valuation within the SV circlejerk. (AKA take off the training wheels)

The order and timing of these events is a matter of political theatre, but each one of these will inevitably make cheap brown people just as expensive as natives, which will end the ridiculous moral conflations Western liberalism heavily relies on... moral conflations that cause and exacerbate modern resentment.

And for the record, the ability of your sacred cows to kill heretics is ending.

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#53

Post by rm_-rf_slash »

crdoconnor wrote: post #49
rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my perspective, the issue is less that the critics decline to offer alternative realistic solutions, but rather that they seek to repackage discredited and harmful solutions (like supply-side economics) as being the correct fix if only it gets implemented correctly and without opposition meddling. This line of argument is also often used to whitewash Communism by saying things along the line of: "Communism would w…

Communism's "discreditation" was the result of a decades long propaganda campaign and their descent into authoritarianism which isn't all that different to that which many capitalist countries went through (or some are currently going through). You hear plenty of "well, capitalism would work fine too if it were just implemented correctly". That's exactly as stupid.

First point, yes on propaganda, but the failure of the Soviet Union had more to do with the inherent limitations of central planning than Marxist communism. That doesn't mean communism is a broken ideology, but rather that by attempting to refine the designs of failed communist states risks going back on the same path, instead of envisioning a new model for a community-focused ideology (in a way different from capitalist overthrow->authoritarianism->"communism").

Capitalism lends itself more towards authoritarianism, in my opinion, as the compound interest function of accumulated wealth works similarly with power. For example, wealthy Republicans support Republican politicians who lower their donors' taxes and entrench their party's power through gerrymandering and voter suppression (such as purged voter rolls, or deliberately understaffed polling places in areas with more opposition party voters).

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#54

Post by thebokehwokeh2 »

crdoconnor wrote: post #42
compiler-guy wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is another criticism, not an alternative proposal. Please give an alternative proposal.

Raise the minimum wage to $20/hour. Watch as "serious economists" lie about: * All of the jobs that will actually not disappear. * All of the prices that will actually not rise (by much). And try really really hard to pretend that: * Raising the minimum wage doesn't channel profits into the pockets of workers. What surprises me isn't that they lie. What surprises me is that people continue to believe them.

> Raise the minimum wage to $20/hour.

I don't know how you came to the conclusion of western liberalism being against raising the minimum wage when it's been a core tenet of their platforms for over a decade now.

But to $20 an hour is something neither liberal nor conservative has EVER advocated for as until there is a public uproar for it, both will always side with corporate interests.

That said, your proposition is an alternative solution that I have never heard anyone of actual influence from either side of the political spectrum (outside of Sanders) ever bring up.

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#55

Post by basicplus2 »

There are fundamental beliefs and strictural issues which are present in any system that allow a few to own and control a majority of the worlds assets and income, and that do not value all people equally, that need to be changed.

To start to fix some of these issues in the Western System, one of the first steps that is required to take is to only allow all company and trust entity shares and interests to be owned SOLEY by REAL PERSONS, and all such owenership should be public knowledge.

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#56

Post by gknoy »

EekSnakePond wrote: post #39
ChuckMcM wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And here is the challenge of that suggestion; what mechanism do you propose to "make them equally expensive" ? There are many things you can 'say' but not 'do', for example 'write the largest integer on this piece of paper'. That is easy to say, and it sounds easy, just put a number down on a piece of paper, but the number requested is not representable and so the suggestion is actually impossible. Your statement "Ma…

You and germinalphrase should check your emails. I've given detailed answers on how to do all of this and addressed your points.

I'm sad to read this, because I was hoping you would be willing to share the ideas in a public forum.

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#57

Post by tornadoboy55 »

the_duke wrote: post #23
m_fayer wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. The basics of liberalism as we see it today - rule of law and representative democracy, are young. How many presently-unthinkable violations of liberalism were committed by a Western nation within the lifespan of someone who is 90 today, with full public support? Outright genocide, systematic persecution and disenfranchisement of whole races and genders, violent militarised colonialism, you name it. Build…

It's easy to forget that what we understand now as a liberal democracy with free press, rule of law and the right for everyone to vote is extremely young. Just look at the time when women were granted voting rights (1). The US, by some seen as the 'holy grail' of modern democracy, officially allowed women to vote in 1919 (ironically many of the Democratic party were opposed), had extensive voter supression such as li…

No one except Americans themselves see the USA as the holy grail of modern democracy. That honor would probably befall one of either the West European or Scandinavian countries.

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#58

Post by Animats »

crdoconnor wrote: post #34
dandare wrote: post #5

Sometimes I feel like the more has been achieved by western liberalism the more is it being criticized for not magically fixing everything there is to be fixed. Coincidentally those who criticize it never offer alternative realistic solutions.

>Coincidentally those who criticize it never offer alternative realistic solutions. The choice to depict, say, Sanders' proposals as unrealistic by straw manning them was a deliberate political attack: http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Columns/2016/01/22/What-Libera... Unfortunately the average Democrat primary voter didn't dig into the substance of the attack well enough to realize that it was essentially bullshit. They…

Rail nationalization again? Britain has gone back and forth on that since the 1940s.[1][2][3] It didn't help. Currently, trains are mostly private and track is mostly Government-owned, which sort of works.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railtrack [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Rail

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#59

Post by corysama »

dandare wrote: post #5

Sometimes I feel like the more has been achieved by western liberalism the more is it being criticized for not magically fixing everything there is to be fixed. Coincidentally those who criticize it never offer alternative realistic solutions.

There's a name for this which escapes me. It happens to individuals a lot. It goes like this:

"In today's news, Person A has made a sizable, significant contribution of Something to help Subset B of The Overwhelming Problem. But, one has to ask: What about The Rest of The Overwhelming Problem? Why doesn't Person A care about any of that!?"

The issue is that you provided the media with a headline they need, but not one they want. You gave them "Things are getting better, but it's complicated". But, what readers respond to is one of "15 reasons you should be afraid, here's who to blame" or "Everything is magically fixed in a single soundbite".

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#60

Post by api »

dandare wrote: post #5

Sometimes I feel like the more has been achieved by western liberalism the more is it being criticized for not magically fixing everything there is to be fixed. Coincidentally those who criticize it never offer alternative realistic solutions.

Oh yes. The genius of totalitarianism and theocracy and similar is to promise nothing but suffering and sacrifice. That way they can always deliver.
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