Trump Fires Acting Attorney General

> I'm not buying it.

Facts remain facts regardless of whether they are convenient to your preferred team.

>how else are we meant to interpret that

You are assuming malevolence in my theorised intentions and actions without having any basis for it. I think the best way to interpret that would be that I have a not unreasonable expectation of loyalty. Remember here that the parent comment specifically said

>The major worry for me is Trump's seeking to punish anyone who shows disloyalty.

Where we are in fact talking about loyalty and not the potential criminality or morality of the executive orders of a man who is has the best chance in a long while of taking us all into a world war

You are technically correct that there is an element of obligation and personal responsibility to refuse to carry out wholly unconscionable orders (i.e., orders that would fundamentally violate the constitutional oath of office), but bear in mind this typically applies only in seriously extreme instances. Just as complaining to your CO that you believe his order may violate the Obscure Act on Military Textiles and Linens will get you laughed out of the room and given a swift kick in the ass, inappropriately misapplying the moral duty to refuse to comply with unconscionable orders will get you fired from the DoJ, which everyone knows and expects.

It should also, again, be noted that Yates was not given any specific order which she is singling out as unconscionable, nor was she personally asked to do anything. She obstructed the president's access to the DoJ. I guess it was in another comment you've left somewhere further down the chain, but yes, the DoJ does have an explicit legal duty to represent the government/executive branch in court, and Ms. Yates chose to pull lawyers off that task.

>4) You seem to be confused about the difference between the "Department of Justice" and the "Department of Homeland Security".

I'm not sure why you think I'm confusing these. I know that DHS subsidiaries run the border. Did I say something that misleads about that?

>Those kinds of things are all "due process" and all actions that you did not cover because the Trump Administration did not do them.

No, lol, those things are not due process. Due process means that the persons whose rights are being deprived received the necessary hearings, etc., before the deprivation occurred. "Due process" does not mean that the president has to ask Congress before he does something "that may tick off many of our major allies".

You're putting words in her mouth. She has not claimed that the Order was unconstitutional. She has not claimed that allowing the DoJ to do its normal work of providing representation to the USG in court actions violated her oath of office. She was not personally given an unconscionable order from POTUS; she chose to interfere in the DoJ's routine work of representing the USG before the judiciary. At this moment, the only viable motive appears to be the desire to make a loud political statement.

"Unconstitutional" means some provision of the Constitution is violated. It doesn't mean "I don't like this law". It doesn't mean "I REALLY don't like this law". The Constitution is a real thing with real words in it, and if those words are not contradicted by an act, it's not unconstitutional. While unconstitutionality is one way in which things can become illegal, it's not the only way, so saying it "may not be legal" isn't claiming it's unconstitutional either.

Ms. Yates does not state that the President's order is unconstitutional. I'm not saying she states it but it doesn't count because she doesn't recount her argument or rationale, she simply doesn't state it. Since she's a lawyer and lawyers thrive on technicalities, she p

>You've been repeating your argument nearly word-for-word throughout the comments here. It's very clear you stand firmly there; nobody has convinced you otherwise despite repeated attempts engaging your points directly, even when your comments do not directly respond to the OPs to which you reply (like me).

I've already addressed the resignation comments elsewhere downthread, and as you point out, the repetition is tiring. I'm sorry if you were offended that I passed over it in this specific reply and chose instead to focus on correcting the incorrect belief that because Ms. Yates thought the order was unjust, she also thought it was unconstitutional, or that her oath to uphold the Constitution mandated her choice.

One can believe something is both Constitutional and unjust, and indeed, a great many things are.

>Resigning is an action that neither checks nor balances—and it ought not be expected of anyone, appointed or otherwise.

No. I'm repeating myself here specifically because you've asked, so please don't try to hold this against me again in another comment.

Government officials resign over personal quibbles because they respect their office and role as representatives of the People of the United States.

If the People have placed that official in a position where they're duty-bound to obey or implement a measure to which they take serious personal umbrage, the honorable thing is to recognize the inherent personal conflict and step aside. This allows the peoples' will to be executed and it allows the moral officer to retain his/her personal integrity.

A person who grasps to the office knowing that he/she cannot faithfully execute its duties and thus requires his/her superior to catch on and make the termination on the people's behalf is showing blatant disrespect for their office and its obligations to the American people and the republican-democratic way of life. Government officials must not forget that their office is not to pursue or represent their personal affairs, interests, or opinions, but those of the people of the United States.

This pattern was followed in the Saturday Night Massacre from the Nixon era, in the which two [acting] AGs turned in their resignations in rapid succession because their personal ethical codes did not allow them to comply with President Nixon's order to fire the Watergate special prosecutor.

Please also note that again, we're talking about specific, already settled things. Saying "Well, I don't think the people want that, so I'm not circumventing their will" is not a real excuse; for these purposes, "the peoples' will" is expressed whenever Constitutional governance is followed. If the people have installed a chief executive whom the AG finds distasteful, the AG is still bound to recognize that executive as the peoples' representative.

All of this applies equally up and down the ranks. It's equally applicable to Kim Davis, the county clerk in KY who refused to comply with SCOTUS's ruling in Obergefell. If she was unable to find some compromise position that would allow her subordinates to file the papers for her or whatever (which, afaik, she ultimately did), she was duty-bound to resign. Kim Davis's refusal to show respect for her office and choice instead to make a political spectacle of herself was very sad.

I'll add that while such unprofessional behavior from a low-level county clerk may not be completely surprising, such behavior from the acting head of the Department of Justice is another story.

>Executive officials, especially within the DOJ, have a responsibility and obligation to the People and Constitution first, and somewhere after that the executive.

Insofar as the executive is duly installed by the People via constitutional means, an obligation to uphold the People and the Constitution is an obligation to the uphold the executive, at least insofar as doing so is part of the structural configuration of the government, and in this case, it is. The DoJ represents the USG before the judiciary. That representation is precisely what Ms. Yates was trying to disrupt.

Everyone agrees that the people knew what they were getting when they put Trump in. Everyone also agrees that there is no glaring constitutional violation in Mr. Trump's order.

If the [acting] AG is at liberty to individually dictate DoJ policy based on nothing but his/her personal feelings of justice, in what capacity are they operating as agents of the people? Why do we need a judiciary and a legislature if the enforcement arm is free to disregard their work, as you seem to be suggesting?

Again, this is not a matter of prosecutorial discretion, in the which the AG would be able to decline to prosecute on certain statutes on a case-by-case basis (and if it just so happens those case-by-case numbers break down with 0 prosecutions, so be it). This is not even the acting AG refusing an unconscionable order. This is simply the acting AG injecting herself into the daily, routine work of the Department of Justice because of her personal sense of justice, with wanton disregard for her role as an officer of the people of the United States, who installed Mr. Trump as the chief executive, and who was quite clear that he would do something like this shortly after getting into office.

No, among the DoJ's jobs, the task to represent the USG before the judiciary is literally and explicitly given.

There's a special role in the DoJ dedicated to representing the government before the Supreme Court (Solicitor General), but other employees of the DoJ represent the executive branch before other courts.

See Executive Order 6166 (from FDR) [0], Section 5, which states in part "the functions of prosecuting in the courts of the United States claims and demands by, and offsenses against, the Government of the United States, and of defending claims and demands against the Government [...] are transferred to the Department of Justice."

From my reading, the act of Congress that created the Department of Justice in 1870 [1] had a similar purpose, and FDR's order was primarily to remove ambiguity and centralize, not to substantially change the DoJ's function. But I'm neither a lawyer nor a legal historian, so I could definitely be wrong about that.

In any case, yes, the thing that former acting AG Yates did does directly interfere with the DoJ's actual and real legal obligations to represent the executive branch. She instructed all DoJ attorneys to stop preparing/presenting legal defenses for Mr. Trump's Executive Order.

My reading of Sessions' line of questioning is a "Do you think you'd be able to function in a scenario when you need to tell the President that he is wrong", not "Are you prepared to assume for yourself the functions of the judiciary to satisfy your personal, ethereal sense of justice when a legal challenge against the president's orders is filed?"

[0] https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/codification/execu... [1] http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llsl&fileName=01...