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Trump Fires Acting Attorney General

nytimes.com

451–460 of 498 posts

Re: Trump Fires Acting Attorney General

#451
post #447
post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's not a tangent. Ms. Yates apparently feels the president does not have the legal authority to make orders of this nature when President Trump is in office, but that he does have the authority when President Obama is in office. There's a very simple answer to this: She did not believe that the Obama EO was unconstitutional, whereas she believed that this one was. Then, everything makes sense. You can rant about h…

So tell me this: what should she have done if she believed the EO, as applied, would be unconstitutional? You ask a reasonable hypothetical, but I don't think it matches the circumstances here. If Yates felt that she could not in good faith enforce the order because it was unconstitutional, I think she would have been very clear about this in her memo: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/30/us/document-L... I…

> Personally, I greatly respect her differentiation between "constitutional" and "right".

Very good point. I hate that it can be taken as taking a political stand whereas it appears to be more of a humanitarian one.

Re: Trump Fires Acting Attorney General

#452
post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ignoring whether I agree or not with the order, firing the AAG made sense. Here's why: #1 - The AG is THE person to defend the administration in court, and even argues personally on behalf of administrations in front of the Supreme Court. Her duty is to defend the Administration's position (even if she personally disagrees with it). As wikipedia puts it (abbreviated for space here): "The United States Attorney Genera…

I am not American, but I believe your first point to be incorrect. The AG is supposed to defend the constitution (including from the president). In her confirmation hearing in 2015, senator Jeff Sessions, who is to take her place asked her: "Do you think the attorney general has a responsibility to say no to the president if he asks for something that's improper...?" Ms Yates replied: "I believe the attorney general…

"defend the constitution" and "follow the constitution" are two completely different things.

Re: Trump Fires Acting Attorney General

#453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The orders only have the force of law if they are based in laws already passed by Congress. If the order conflicts with these laws or the Constitution, it's the order that gets ignored, not the laws. The law passed by Congress in this case states that the immigration department is not allowed to discriminate based by country of origin. The Constitution also states that people are required to have due process before t…

>The orders only have the force of law if they are based in laws already passed by Congress. If the order conflicts with these laws or the Constitution, it's the order that gets ignored, not the laws. Yes, I agree. It's the judiciary's role to interpret the law and decide whether there is a conflict. It is true that the AG has an oath to uphold the Constitution, including the elements of the Constitution that provide…

You claimed you didn't want to get into the details as you weren't "qualified" but you seem to be posting alot of the same points from people who want to believe the administration is completely blameless at this. Which is simply not the case. To go over this point by point:

1) Your point on it being "the Judiciaries" role is just plain wrong. Officers of the government, just like officers in the military have discretion about following illegal orders. As evidence: Former Attorney Generals and other people who worked in the Justice Dept. are either speaking out in favor of Yate's actions, or are just not making this argument. At Yate's own confirmation hearing she was asked whether she would follow the law or follow the President's orders if she were confirmed. The people making your argument are the Trump administration, who are the ones on the spot here, and who haven't even been on the job for two weeks yet.

2) "Do foreign nationals who have not yet been granted access to the United States have rights under the U.S. Constitution?"

Yes absolutely they do. Especially if they are being detained by the U.S. government. The Constitution and other laws are more often about limiting what the government can do, then who the government is doing it to.

2a) The people in the initial cases are Permanent Residents of the U.S. They can't get that status removed without some kind of process. And they were being held by Border Protection which brings up direct Habeus Corpus issues.

3) Your point about whether the acting Attorney General should have resigned instead is clearly wrong as well. If following orders does more harm to people than resigning, it is absolutely the correct move to countermand an illegal order. Also, resigning without giving any reasoning just gives the administration cover for their illegal actions, which is more harmful than forcing them to fire you. The only people resigning would help would be the Administration, so ethically, that resigning was not the "right thing" to do.

4) You seem to be confused about the difference between the "Department of Justice" and the "Department of Homeland Security". He didn't consult the Secretary of DHS who was his own nominee on this. And DHS runs Border Protection and a number of other agencies that are the ones enforcing the order. Also, it is typical to consult Congress when you're doing something that might tick off many of our major allies. Especially since Congress was the ones who wrote the immigration act which is at the heart of many of these lawsuits.

5) "It doesn't appear that you've identified a due process that is being skipped."

You mean other than consulting all of the relevant agencies to make sure it doesn't conflict with any laws that cover them, before implementing the change? Consulting Congress before setting up a policy that conflicts with existing immigration law, particularly the Immigration Act of 1965? Setting up an impartial process for green card holders to contest their deportation, which did not happen at all? Giving warning to residents who are travelling abroad that they may have their visa revoked before they leave so they know to put that into consideration? How about setting up a process for the U.S. to continue to meet it's international human rights obligations to protect refugees? Those kinds of things are all "due process" and all actions that you did not cover because the Trump Administration did not do them.

Re: Trump Fires Acting Attorney General

#454
post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if you ordered something of dubious legality, and your top corporate lawyer suggested it was unlikely to pass a trial, you would just sack them and ask the next one the same thing again? Like you said in the parent comment. This isn't behavior that should be encouraged, neither in you nor in Trump, and your original sentiment that we shouldn't worry about it isn't something I'd subscribe to.

>So if you ordered something of dubious legality, and your top corporate lawyer suggested it was unlikely to pass a trial, you would just sack them and ask the next one the same thing again? At no point have I said I take a view that is often taken in HN, that is, if you can play the game and win, it doesn't matter how you do it. I actually don't think that. You are inferring that I am because of your pro-trump bias…

> >So if you ordered something of dubious legality, and your top corporate lawyer suggested it was unlikely to pass a trial, you would just sack them and ask the next one the same thing again?

> At no point have I said I take a view that is often taken in HN, that is, if you can play the game and win, it doesn't matter how you do it. I actually don't think that.

But you literally wrote this in your original post:

> If I was President/General/CEO and someone doesn't do the thing I have ordered, i'm going to fire them as well.

How else are we meant to interpret that?

On the last part I only have this to say: I don't have pro-trump bias. I am very anti-trump, but not as a premise, but rather as an end result of my rationality.

Re: Trump Fires Acting Attorney General

#455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The National Review's article basically boils down to "well, we found this section that allows suspending entry of some people, and even though there's another section explicitly forbidding doing this stuff based on national origin we're going to say he has essentially unlimited power to do whatever he wants". Meanwhile the federal judge who ordered the stay thinks theress a strong likelihood that the order is either…

Your personal opinion is fine, but if there's a legitimate interpretative question here, is it not the duty of the DoJ to allow the judiciary to do its job and support the chief executive until he/she loses in court, fair and square? Such accommodations were afforded by Mr. Obama's DoJ, of which Ms. Yates was a part, in light of his actually-decided-by-SCOTUS-to-be-illegal set of EOs. Ms. Yates is refusing to allow t…

The Department of Justice's job is not to "support the chief executive". In fact, Yate's was asked directly by then Senator, and current Attorney General nominee, Sessions at her confirmation hearing whether she thought "the attorney general has the responsibility to say no to the President if he asks for something that's improper?"

She did exactly what she said she would and what Congress asked her to do. In this case, I'm going to go with someone who has been in the job for years over the self-serving justifications of an administration that hasn't been in office for two weeks.

Re: Trump Fires Acting Attorney General

#456

Almost my whole adult life, I looked up to America. Whatever I know and my life's value system is mostly because of the books I read by American authors. I couldn't belive the news when I heard that Americans chose Trump. When did America become so stupid to vote in these people?

Why are you so stupid as to think America will not defend its borders? Why are you so stupid as to not realize America is modeled on individual freedom, which is incompatible with Sharia Jihadis? Defense of individual freedom and liberty (i.e. preventing the creation a police state and ensuring gun rights) is more important than leftist feelings. There are some bad dudes to remove in the meantime.

Please stop posting like this—personal attacks are not OK on Hacker News and we've already asked you to stop violating the guidelines. We have to ban accounts that won't post civilly and substantively.

Re: Trump Fires Acting Attorney General

#457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As true as this is, the symbolism behind this action is really troubling. On the contrary, I find it thrilling, and am eager for more in this vein.

Thanks for letting us know that you are a fascist.

We've asked you not to do this already, please stop!

Re: Trump Fires Acting Attorney General

#458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure you understand the history, legally defined role, and traditions of the AG well enough to say, "You seem to be radically redefining the role of the AG/DoJ." to me? That's an awfully strong statement. Green card holders legally well defined rights with strong precedent. I would personally research where those are defined and how they were affected by the original EA if I wanted to understand the full cont…

>Are you sure you understand the history, legally defined role, and traditions of the AG well enough to say, "You seem to be radically redefining the role of the AG/DoJ." to me? That's an awfully strong statement. No.

Thanks for the good discussion, upvotes are a token of my appreciation.

Re: Trump Fires Acting Attorney General

#459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you disagree with Jeff Sessions who said "the attorney general has a responsibility to say no to the president if he asks for something that's improper." Ironically he did this at Sally Yates' confirmation hearing, he went on to praise John Ashcroft for resisting the Bush administration. http://theweek.com/speedreads/677012/watch-jeff-sessions-urg...

You're both right, but when it plays out in public, someone has to get fired.

If you fire someone for being a professional, you're going to get unprofessional behavior.

So yeah, you can do it. But you'll get what you get.

Re: Trump Fires Acting Attorney General

#460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Get real. The objections to the order are based exclusively on whether there's an (R) or a (D) next to the President's name. Nothing more. Incredible to see how many people suddenly "care" about the Constitution after 8 years of Obama wiping his feet on it.

Just to clarify, are you an (R) who is OK with this stuff? Or are you just more upset about consistency than rights abuses?

Why, are you confused about whether to downvote me? I don't see (a) why it should matter or (b) that it's any of your business... The fact that you need to know the letter next to my name to evaluate my statement is exactly what is wrong with America.
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