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Tesla – Lithium-ion storage is ready to power the grid

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Re: Tesla – Lithium-ion storage is ready to power the grid

#31

Post by secabeen »

Nition wrote: post #29
petra wrote: post #15

There's a missing parameter here: the number of recharge cycles a battery can have without losing large capacity , because over the long term - decades, like done in this business, that's what determines the cost per kwh charge stored and supplied, i.e. what end users pay for. Without those numbers, it's not possibe to judge Tesla against the competition, for example Alevo, which claims more the 50,000 charge cycles,…

I also wonder how it compares in cost to pumped storage hydroelectric. You can use excess power to pump water uphill and then release it to generate hydro power when needed. Requires the right geography but it can essentially store huge amounts of power and it's apparently pretty cost effective. California already has at least a couple that I can see: - Helms Pumped Storage Plant[1] - 1.2GW capacity - Castaic Power P…

Pumped storage hydro is great, but it is limited to places that have the right terrain.

Re: Tesla – Lithium-ion storage is ready to power the grid

#32

Post by Nition »

secabeen wrote: post #31
Nition wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also wonder how it compares in cost to pumped storage hydroelectric. You can use excess power to pump water uphill and then release it to generate hydro power when needed. Requires the right geography but it can essentially store huge amounts of power and it's apparently pretty cost effective. California already has at least a couple that I can see: - Helms Pumped Storage Plant[1] - 1.2GW capacity - Castaic Power P…

Pumped storage hydro is great, but it is limited to places that have the right terrain.

I wonder what the cost would be of pumped storage in just like a massive water tank on a hill, or a big manually dug out lake, rather than in somewhere that could actually be a natural lake.

Re: Tesla – Lithium-ion storage is ready to power the grid

#33

Post by fcanesin »

Nition wrote: post #29
petra wrote: post #15

There's a missing parameter here: the number of recharge cycles a battery can have without losing large capacity , because over the long term - decades, like done in this business, that's what determines the cost per kwh charge stored and supplied, i.e. what end users pay for. Without those numbers, it's not possibe to judge Tesla against the competition, for example Alevo, which claims more the 50,000 charge cycles,…

I also wonder how it compares in cost to pumped storage hydroelectric. You can use excess power to pump water uphill and then release it to generate hydro power when needed. Requires the right geography but it can essentially store huge amounts of power and it's apparently pretty cost effective. California already has at least a couple that I can see: - Helms Pumped Storage Plant[1] - 1.2GW capacity - Castaic Power P…

Sure much better, this California push is a subsidy for battery storage. Not a economical choice.

Pumped storage has even the advantage of that it can be implemented during construction of hydroelectric power plants, you just need the interconnected grid, but you will need the grid either way with renewables.

In other words: you don't need to build a reservoir. You just need to pump back of the exit of a already existing hydroelectric plant and build the power line to connect both plants.

Re: Tesla – Lithium-ion storage is ready to power the grid

#34

Post by [deleted] »

secabeen wrote: post #31
Nition wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also wonder how it compares in cost to pumped storage hydroelectric. You can use excess power to pump water uphill and then release it to generate hydro power when needed. Requires the right geography but it can essentially store huge amounts of power and it's apparently pretty cost effective. California already has at least a couple that I can see: - Helms Pumped Storage Plant[1] - 1.2GW capacity - Castaic Power P…

Pumped storage hydro is great, but it is limited to places that have the right terrain.

[deleted]

Re: Tesla – Lithium-ion storage is ready to power the grid

#35

Post by lliiffee »

Can anyone explain the logic behind having lots of small batteries, rather than the power company buying a Big Battery and offering this as a service?

Two reasons occur to me:

1. Situations off the grid or with unreliable power (eg blackouts) 2. Transmission costs are high, so it's better to have the storage close to the source.

Even in the second case, it seems like the power company could distribute these. I wonder if they are just more regulated/slow moving/immune to marketing.

Re: Tesla – Lithium-ion storage is ready to power the grid

#36

Post by [deleted] »

fcanesin wrote: post #33
Nition wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also wonder how it compares in cost to pumped storage hydroelectric. You can use excess power to pump water uphill and then release it to generate hydro power when needed. Requires the right geography but it can essentially store huge amounts of power and it's apparently pretty cost effective. California already has at least a couple that I can see: - Helms Pumped Storage Plant[1] - 1.2GW capacity - Castaic Power P…

Sure much better, this California push is a subsidy for battery storage. Not a economical choice. Pumped storage has even the advantage of that it can be implemented during construction of hydroelectric power plants, you just need the interconnected grid, but you will need the grid either way with renewables. In other words: you don't need to build a reservoir. You just need to pump back of the exit of a already exis…

[deleted]

Re: Tesla – Lithium-ion storage is ready to power the grid

#37

Post by epistasis »

fcanesin wrote: post #33
Nition wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also wonder how it compares in cost to pumped storage hydroelectric. You can use excess power to pump water uphill and then release it to generate hydro power when needed. Requires the right geography but it can essentially store huge amounts of power and it's apparently pretty cost effective. California already has at least a couple that I can see: - Helms Pumped Storage Plant[1] - 1.2GW capacity - Castaic Power P…

Sure much better, this California push is a subsidy for battery storage. Not a economical choice. Pumped storage has even the advantage of that it can be implemented during construction of hydroelectric power plants, you just need the interconnected grid, but you will need the grid either way with renewables. In other words: you don't need to build a reservoir. You just need to pump back of the exit of a already exis…

This is flat out wrong, the cost per MWh for stored electricity compares favorably to the natural gas peaker plants that it's replacing, at least when they're built on a usual schedule.

I would also like to see evidence for th claim about reusing existing hydroelectric plants, because that does not seem to be consistent with anything I've seen before. It would be very welcome news to me!

Re: Tesla – Lithium-ion storage is ready to power the grid

#38

Post by natermer »

drcross wrote: post #23
petra wrote: post #15

There's a missing parameter here: the number of recharge cycles a battery can have without losing large capacity , because over the long term - decades, like done in this business, that's what determines the cost per kwh charge stored and supplied, i.e. what end users pay for. Without those numbers, it's not possibe to judge Tesla against the competition, for example Alevo, which claims more the 50,000 charge cycles,…

Early compiled reports by Tesla users suggest that there is far more cycles on those cells than many had previously anticipated. https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/tesla-battery-degradation/

If you limit the charge of the lithium battery to something like 4.0v versus 4.2v (70-75% capacity) you can double or triple the amount the useful cycles.

All of this is nice because electric motors are essentially infinitely rebuild-able provided they are not burned out or abused.

There is absolutely no question that electric motors are superior to gasoline motors in every way. More torque, simpler, less maintenance. The problem has always been the batteries.

Provided the batteries can be replaced without destroying a car and there isn't some sort of DRM protecting the car from third party batteries there isn't any reason why you would want to buy a new car except to waste money.

Re: Tesla – Lithium-ion storage is ready to power the grid

#40

Post by Florin_Andrei »

askvictor wrote: post #20
synicalx wrote: post #19

I'm curious - if you take a normal Li-ion battery out of a phone (for example) and whack it with a hammer it'll put on a pretty decent and dangerous show. Can the same thing happen to a big battery? I'd imagine they wouldn't be as 'flimsy' as the ones in a phone, and weight isn't really an issue so they could happily have some kind of extra insulation/shielding.

I think (could be wrong) that these 'big batteries' are just banks of small batteries- a bit bigger than AA cells - the same that run cordless power tools and (older) laptops (and Tesla cars)

You mean the 18650 cells.

I'm not sure if Tesla still uses them (they certainly did in the beginning), or whether they've switched to some proprietary format by now.

EDIT: They still use the 18650, but plan to switch to a bigger format for the Model 3:

http://fortune.com/2016/07/27/tesla-bigger-battery-gigafacto...

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