It seems like once they get their costs nailed down leasing them, and basically taking the first X% profit, giving 'green' thinking people new tech to show off, leverageable during power events at a profit if done in concert with energy companies.
Tesla – Lithium-ion storage is ready to power the grid
11–20 of 54 posts
Re: Tesla – Lithium-ion storage is ready to power the grid
#12Earlier quoted context omitted.
that would be awesome, but would be one heavy shipping container..
Well, given we ship around semi-trucks full (ok not completely full due to the exact weight you describe) of lead-acid car batteries for recycling, it wouldn't be unthinkable. Li-on, I believe, is roughly 200% lighter for the same battery. IE: http://www.powertechsystems.eu/home/tech-corner/lithium-ion-... Not sure how that carries over to larger batteries as I've only really dealt with them for ATV type use.
40kg for lead acid equals 13.6kg for lithium so that's 66% lighter.
Re: Tesla – Lithium-ion storage is ready to power the grid
#13Recent discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13467572
Re: Tesla – Lithium-ion storage is ready to power the grid
#14Earlier quoted context omitted.
that would be awesome, but would be one heavy shipping container..
Well, given we ship around semi-trucks full (ok not completely full due to the exact weight you describe) of lead-acid car batteries for recycling, it wouldn't be unthinkable. Li-on, I believe, is roughly 200% lighter for the same battery. IE: http://www.powertechsystems.eu/home/tech-corner/lithium-ion-... Not sure how that carries over to larger batteries as I've only really dealt with them for ATV type use.
Is 200% lighter half as heavy, or is it buoyant? Cause 100% lighter is weightless. So 200% would be a negative weight. I am just confused.
Re: Tesla – Lithium-ion storage is ready to power the grid
#15There's a missing parameter here: the number of recharge cycles a battery can have without losing large capacity , because over the long term - decades, like done in this business, that's what determines the cost per kwh charge stored and supplied, i.e. what end users pay for.
Without those numbers, it's not possibe to judge Tesla against the competition, for example Alevo, which claims more the 50,000 charge cycles, vs ,i believe, 5000 charge cycles for Tesla.
For Alevo, the final cost per store/supplied should be ~3cents/kwh, over 20 earss lifespan, which should make grid storage very economical.
Re: Tesla – Lithium-ion storage is ready to power the grid
#16Earlier quoted context omitted.
that would be awesome, but would be one heavy shipping container..
Well, given we ship around semi-trucks full (ok not completely full due to the exact weight you describe) of lead-acid car batteries for recycling, it wouldn't be unthinkable. Li-on, I believe, is roughly 200% lighter for the same battery. IE: http://www.powertechsystems.eu/home/tech-corner/lithium-ion-... Not sure how that carries over to larger batteries as I've only really dealt with them for ATV type use.
The back of my envelope says that a shipping container full of Li-on batteries would weight 192.5 tons at 2.5 kg/L compared to the maximum standard load of 30.5 tons. So it would have to be mostly empty. I don't think that makes it infeasible, though.
Re: Tesla – Lithium-ion storage is ready to power the grid
#17There seems to be some conflicting information in the article, I don't understand how these quotes line up: "...prices for lithium-ion batteries have fallen fast — by almost half just since 2014." "But for the most part, according to a BNEF analysis, the costs of new projects would need to drop by half in order to be profitable on a wider scale in California, and that’s not likely to happen for another decade." The p…
If it's just 50% away from profitability with the ridiculously cheap cost of electricity in California and the US in general, it will do just fine for vast swaths of the developed world. Not to mention that the edge of profitability probably isn't so much determined by the consumer price of electricity, but the sources that feed a countries grid. Lots of renewables with huge output swings (Germany) versus full nuclea…
A big factor in profitability is normal swing in grid price which is going to tend to be pretty pretty big in California with it's high baseline energy prices and extensive use of renewables which come on and off line according to their own schedules.
Re: Tesla – Lithium-ion storage is ready to power the grid
#18Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, given we ship around semi-trucks full (ok not completely full due to the exact weight you describe) of lead-acid car batteries for recycling, it wouldn't be unthinkable. Li-on, I believe, is roughly 200% lighter for the same battery. IE: http://www.powertechsystems.eu/home/tech-corner/lithium-ion-... Not sure how that carries over to larger batteries as I've only really dealt with them for ATV type use.
Is 200% lighter half as heavy, or is it buoyant? Cause 100% lighter is weightless. So 200% would be a negative weight. I am just confused.
You are correct, the link to powertechsystems.eu has those erroneous percentage calculations.
Re: Tesla – Lithium-ion storage is ready to power the grid
#19I'm curious - if you take a normal Li-ion battery out of a phone (for example) and whack it with a hammer it'll put on a pretty decent and dangerous show. Can the same thing happen to a big battery?
I'd imagine they wouldn't be as 'flimsy' as the ones in a phone, and weight isn't really an issue so they could happily have some kind of extra insulation/shielding.
Re: Tesla – Lithium-ion storage is ready to power the grid
#20I'm curious - if you take a normal Li-ion battery out of a phone (for example) and whack it with a hammer it'll put on a pretty decent and dangerous show. Can the same thing happen to a big battery? I'd imagine they wouldn't be as 'flimsy' as the ones in a phone, and weight isn't really an issue so they could happily have some kind of extra insulation/shielding.
I think (could be wrong) that these 'big batteries' are just banks of small batteries- a bit bigger than AA cells - the same that run cordless power tools and (older) laptops (and Tesla cars)