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Welcome, ACLU

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Re: Welcome, ACLU

#801

Post by [deleted] »

19guid wrote: post #707
danielsju6 wrote: post #605

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Refusal of service based race, sex, marital status or sexual orientation is not protected speech. It's discrimination. They gave up rights when they went into business.

I don't think refusal of service is itself protected speech either, but we're not talking about the government restricting protected speech. We're talking about the government compelling an individual to engage in protected speech, like taking a wedding photograph. > The U.S. Supreme Court has said repeatedly that the First Amendment protects an "individual freedom of mind"—e.g., (1943), which affirmed the right not…

[deleted]

Re: Welcome, ACLU

#802

Post by ceejayoz »

lol214365 wrote: post #706
Miner49er wrote: post #615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The line between free speech and discrimination was drawn long ago. Would you also have people deny service to Black Americans like we did before the Civil Rights movement?

They are not denying service. Any gay customer can go into an aforementioned bakery and order any of the goods any other customer might order. They just cannot order a cake for a gay wedding -- nor can any straight customer. That is completely different than categorically denying service to black customers.

> They just cannot order a cake for a gay wedding -- nor can any straight customer.

That's like saying you didn't steal my money, you've just enforced a rule that I can only spend my money on you.

Re: Welcome, ACLU

#803

Post by TheOsiris »

dwaxe wrote: post #716
lol214365 wrote: post #710

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ACLU has completely deviated from their declared mission -- protecting civil liberties -- in recent weeks. The ACLU opposes a border wall. Who's civil liberties are violated by a border wall? The ACLU opposes the immigration and refugee EO. Who's civil liberties are violated by foreign nationals not being permitted into the United States?

They literally tell you. Border wall: https://www.aclu.org/news/aclu-trumps-border-and-sanctuary-c... One of dozens of articles on the refugee EO: https://www.aclu.org/blog/speak-freely/trump-begins-his-unco...

that justification is very weak re the border wall. we can argue that it is a dumb way to do things. but if that was the case then everything the gov does needs an ACLU lawsuit.

the constitution does not guarantee open-borders and the entire immigration system is there to act as a virtual wall in the first place. So I fail to understand the ACLU's position on the wall. It definitely has nothing to do with constitutional issues

Re: Welcome, ACLU

#804

Post by SomewhatLikely »

amckenna wrote: post #622
joshfraser wrote: post #427

I've been a long time supporter of the ACLU. While they're being politicized right now as being anti-Trump, the thing I admire most about them is their consistency in fighting for the rights of everyone. They stick to their principles of free speech and human equality no matter how unpopular the issue or unsavory their client. A good example is back in the 1930s when the ACLU simultaneously defended the rights of bla…

I searched around to see if I could find any writeup about the ACLU defending the NAACP and KKK at the same time. I found a similar example to the one you described from the mid 90's - http://www.nytimes.com/1993/09/10/news/a-klansman-s-black-la...

Not sure what happened, but it looks like the attorney was recently disbarred for "professional misconduct". http://www.txcourts.gov/media/825977/149249.pdf

Re: Welcome, ACLU

#805

Post by deeth_starr »

sueders101 wrote: post #691
deeth_starr wrote: post #679

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But compared to the last few elections they stayed home [1]. It could be voter suppression but they were also down in California. [1] http://www.salon.com/2016/11/10/the-real-reason-black-voters...

Your link only talks about early voting in South Carolina. I haven't been able to find a source on black voter turnout numbers nationwide in 2016. As I said in my previous comment, voter turnout was down across all demographics[1]. It's very difficult to vote more loyally to the democratic party than black people have over the past two decades or so. [1] http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/11/politics/popular-vote-turnout-...

I posted this later[1]. I think overall voter turnout was slightly down. Also, I am not blaming Hillary's loss on specific demographics. Just let's not start fighting with each other. We all need to step up and get in the game for all.

black voter turnout 2016 http://www.phillytrib.com/news/black-voter-turnout-a-look-at...

wide look http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2016/12/raw-data-turno...

Re: Welcome, ACLU

#806

Post by sidlls »

wfo wrote: post #774
sidlls wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, asking why things were done in the past is a useful exercise to uncover deficiencies in reasoning, process and other areas which can be acted upon for present and future action. Your argument is essentially "don't ask why my favored party/people/orgs did bad things, just pay attention to the rhetoric they're using now." It's an incredibly cynical position to take, in my opinion.

It's cyclical to be constantly looking back and holding every group to this impossible standard we've constructed for today that is constantly changing. This is the only argument I ever see from Trump supporters: Clinton or Obama or the Democrats did it/would have done it or worse, so it's all okay and you aren't allowed to complain. Never is the argument presented that what is currently being done is right, because…

What makes you think I support Trump? My criticism comes from the left, not the right. The difference between Hillary and Trump has always been one of style and in some areas depth, not substance. Suddenly Hillary's supporters decide to protest and support anti-Trump action, when the entire Democratic establishment supported the very things that have set Trump up for years without a peep. I'm deeply skeptical and do not trust them. Period.

Re: Welcome, ACLU

#807

Post by sidlls »

k-mcgrady wrote: post #789
sidlls wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that case, I fully expect to see continued activity on this front even after the next Democratic adminstration and congress continues the Bush-Obama-Trump programs that are (finally) meeting resistance. I won't hold my breath waiting for that, though. Usually what happens is that when one's favored party regains power the criticism suddenly disappears.

You need to stop, just for a second, and not look at this as a Democrat/Republican thing. When you have tens of thousands of people protesting it in countries outside the US (massive protests in London and around the UK yesterday) it's clearly beyond partisan politics and just about the issue. It's not red vs blue and it's certainly not left vs right considering our right is only about as right as your left.

I'm neither a Democrat nor a Republican, and don't view it through that lense. I'm viewing this (support for the ACLU) with a skeptical eye, the same way I'd view a Trump protest started by Hillary campaign staffers.

Re: Welcome, ACLU

#808

Post by chc »

lol214365 wrote: post #706
Miner49er wrote: post #615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The line between free speech and discrimination was drawn long ago. Would you also have people deny service to Black Americans like we did before the Civil Rights movement?

They are not denying service. Any gay customer can go into an aforementioned bakery and order any of the goods any other customer might order. They just cannot order a cake for a gay wedding -- nor can any straight customer. That is completely different than categorically denying service to black customers.

This is cognate to the "Black people can get married, just not to members of a different race" argument, which has long been recognized as specious.

Re: Welcome, ACLU

#809

Post by DashRattlesnake »

bjourne wrote: post #754
DashRattlesnake wrote: post #644

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A long time ago, during the GWB administration, I donated to the ACLU and got placed on the postal mailing lists of innumerable unrelated Democratic-leaning activist organizations. I was disappointed by that, since the partisan association cheapens their work and opens them up to attack.

Are you sure you didn't tick the "Yes, send me information about related campaigns box"? Because this is what their privacy statement reads: "When we give you an opportunity to voluntarily submit information about yourself, we may give you the option of indicating that you permit us to share that data with other parties such as coalition partners or specific legislators. We will not share your data with such parties…

> Are you sure you didn't tick the "Yes, send me information about related campaigns box"? Because this is what their privacy statement reads:

My donation happened more than 10 years ago (probably closer to 15), so who knows what their privacy stance was then. Quoting their current one certainly doesn't shed any light onto that.

In any case, while the fact that they shared my info was annoying, it also wasn't the point I was getting at. My point was: they chose to lump themselves in with unrelated left-wing causes by sharing my data, and I'm unhappy they chose to make civil liberties seem like a left/right thing by doing that.

Re: Welcome, ACLU

#810

Post by abecedarius »

monochromatic wrote: post #33

The ACLU sometimes supports a worthy cause, but it's basically just a left-leaning political organization. I understand that's particularly trendy right now, and anyone who supports Trump is a pariah in Silicon Valley... but come on. Would YC be donating directly to the Democratic party if that got the same favorable tax treatment?

Downvoted because of the false implication of favorable tax treatment. Donations to the ACLU are not deductible, though they have an associated foundation you can donate to instead: https://action.aclu.org/what-difference
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