Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

AI Beats Four Top Poker Players

bbc.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 234 posts

Re: AI Beats Four Top Poker Players

#71

Post by sanswork »

softawre wrote: post #46
sanswork wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>All the actual best players play for millions and have a reputation to uphold. All these players are high stakes players. I think you're underestimating the fun factor. As for reputation. For a poker player having a reputation as being beatable is a profitable thing to have. >but they aren't the best of the best. Who do you think is? Like how many people do you think rank above this group at HUNL?

I agree, these probably aren't the best. Same as in programming. There are some great programmers that we all know and that are public figures. But the absolute best? Probably making high 7 figures working in a dark room somewhere.

When it comes to HUNL specialists the best have to be public because there isn't as much action offline as in full ring and MTTs.

They aren't the best since I think that probably is safely in Polks hands but they are near the best.

Re: AI Beats Four Top Poker Players

#72

Post by brilliantcode »

arnarbi wrote: post #61
brilliantcode wrote: post #5

it won't be long before we hearing more headlines like: "AI beats top 10 hedge fund managers" to "AI run hedge fund blows up due to black swan event" regardless it's an incredible feat. It really casts questions into what our edge as humans are which is slowly disappearing and we didn't even need to put a brain in a jar and hook it up to a computer....it's deep learning reinforced algorithms that is appearing to outl…

> It's almost like we've uncovered ways to automate our intelligence very much like we've been automating human and animal labor in the past couple centuries. Actually, a lot of mental work isn't based on intelligence but rather training in pattern recognition, thinking faster, translation of information between different coding systems, and developing instincts about the behavior if complex systems. This isn't very…

hmmm interesting way to put things. I often held such cynicisms about "intelligent" and "professionals". At the end of the day it's still labor, white collared, but none the less value is trapped in the blackbox which are humans.

Now it appears the essence of that is being distilled into parameters for AI algorithms which can produce superior output by teaching it with decades of professional human knowledge which maybe dumbed down with simple machine learning.

Re: AI Beats Four Top Poker Players

#73

Post by brilliantcode »

deepnotderp wrote: post #44
brilliantcode wrote: post #5

it won't be long before we hearing more headlines like: "AI beats top 10 hedge fund managers" to "AI run hedge fund blows up due to black swan event" regardless it's an incredible feat. It really casts questions into what our edge as humans are which is slowly disappearing and we didn't even need to put a brain in a jar and hook it up to a computer....it's deep learning reinforced algorithms that is appearing to outl…

> "So the question is, how does an average joe hacker like me exploit and leverage this wonderful thing called deep learning? I'm not interested in reading PHD papers with advanced calculus." FFS, if you're not willing to read a paper with BASIC CALCULUS (it's HS/college, not advanced like fractional), then I'm not sure machine learning is the right place for you.

Sure it is. Much like most developers don't spend their time reading on computing science papers to do their job, I question why such academic rigour is to be demanded from somebody trying to capitalize on the arbitrage opportunity.

Math is good but my time won't be best used if I have to learn calculus all over again just to begin understanding the linguo. Rather have a generic model of what to use and when, hire those that have that capacity to dive deep when needed and implement the expected business outcome.

Re: AI Beats Four Top Poker Players

#74

Post by leeleelee »

andrewprock wrote: post #56
doesnotexist wrote: post #2

Andrew Ng posted a comment about this on facebook: "I'm thrilled about Libratus' Poker triumph--this is a huge step for AI. Othello/Checkers/Chess/Go were theoretically solvable with minimax tree search and sheer computation; but poker, which requires bluffing, needs sophisticated modeling of your opponents and new algorithmic principles. CMU's Tuomas Sandholm has also (in a private email) promised to publish their a…

I'm surprised that Andrew Ng made this claim. The strategy that was built for Libratus' predecessor did not do sophisticated modeling of the opponents, or use new algorithmic principles. Poker is solved using a very large game tree, just as with the other games. The structure of the tree is modified to support the notion of hidden state, but beyond that it is essentially the same as the other games. The structure for…

This was my thought too. Poker is quite "solvable" meaning, whenever you're confronted with a decisions -- there is always a "correct" answer which does not have to depend on the other players' behavior or style. And you can find that answer by simulation, or game trees, and other methods.

It's also important to keep in mind that the best AI can still lose, and the worst AI can still win (and everything in between). Poker involves randomness, obviously whereas chess/go/etc does not.

Re: AI Beats Four Top Poker Players

#75

Post by bcassedy »

Anyone that's interested in reading a more detailed account of the experiment can do so here:

http://www.pokerlistings.com/libratus-poker-ai-smokes-humans...

The above article spells out some of the details of the competition. The winrate (14.72bb/100) that the AI achieved over the 120k hand sample is almost certainly not due to luck. It is a huge winrate that most pros have to employ strong game selection techniques to achieve (only play against bad players).

Here's a layman's explanation of how a poker AI can be trained: http://www.pokersnowie.com/about/technology-training.html

And some details about the weaknesses resulting from how they've abstracted the game: http://www.pokersnowie.com/about/weaknesses.html

Re: AI Beats Four Top Poker Players

#76

Post by ori_b »

brilliantcode wrote: post #73
deepnotderp wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "So the question is, how does an average joe hacker like me exploit and leverage this wonderful thing called deep learning? I'm not interested in reading PHD papers with advanced calculus." FFS, if you're not willing to read a paper with BASIC CALCULUS (it's HS/college, not advanced like fractional), then I'm not sure machine learning is the right place for you.

Sure it is. Much like most developers don't spend their time reading on computing science papers to do their job, I question why such academic rigour is to be demanded from somebody trying to capitalize on the arbitrage opportunity. Math is good but my time won't be best used if I have to learn calculus all over again just to begin understanding the linguo. Rather have a generic model of what to use and when, hire th…

Because this is the language of the domain. Much like code is the language of programming. This isn't academic rigor or lingo. This is how things work.

To me, your comment reads similarly to "Much like most business people don't spend their time reading code to do the job, I question why such academic rigor is to be demanded by someone who is translating business requirements into database operations".

Re: AI Beats Four Top Poker Players

#77

Post by 09bjb »

RyanRies wrote: post #30
niketear wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in what way would that defeat the purpose? the players can also review their days play during the night

Yeah... I guess I was just expecting the AI to be more self-learning and self-tuning...

It built most of its decision model by playing itself over "trillions of hands", according to Prof. Sandholm. You could almost think of the nightly reviews as a similar process to a human sleeping: we benefit from memory consolidation, pruning, time to reflect, etc. I don't see giving the computer 12 hours a night to do something close to reflection and self-analysis as "cheating," or even very different from what its opponents did over Mexican food each night.

Re: AI Beats Four Top Poker Players

#78

Post by panorama »

jedberg wrote: post #63
sanswork wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>All the actual best players play for millions and have a reputation to uphold. All these players are high stakes players. I think you're underestimating the fun factor. As for reputation. For a poker player having a reputation as being beatable is a profitable thing to have. >but they aren't the best of the best. Who do you think is? Like how many people do you think rank above this group at HUNL?

Anybody here? http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/rankings/ Or any of these people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Series_of_Poker_...

I like your posts, but you're misinformed on this topic. The pros selected are among the best HUNL players in the world right now. Offering the top winners in a separate variant not only misinterprets how different the games are but also falsely equivocates being the best with making the most money.

If someone asked you who the best mobile app developers were in the world, your list should comprise solely of mobile app developers.

Re: AI Beats Four Top Poker Players

#79

Post by brilliantcode »

deepnotderp wrote: post #47
bduerst wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>AI beats top 10 hedge fund managers" Hedge funds are already using A.I. successfully. I talked one manager who's team was trying to layer successful individual neural networks into a "bigger brain".

Been there, done that (well kind, of, via several small specialized nets). Actually a pretty good trading strategy, but works better if you actually have capital to use it....

probably not going to get any details out of you but worth trying: can you give any pointers to implement such strategies and the minimum capital involved?

Re: AI Beats Four Top Poker Players

#80

Post by RexetBlell »

jedberg wrote: post #63
sanswork wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>All the actual best players play for millions and have a reputation to uphold. All these players are high stakes players. I think you're underestimating the fun factor. As for reputation. For a poker player having a reputation as being beatable is a profitable thing to have. >but they aren't the best of the best. Who do you think is? Like how many people do you think rank above this group at HUNL?

Anybody here? http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/rankings/ Or any of these people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Series_of_Poker_...

All of those people would get absolutely crushed at heads up no limit by any of the four players.

Jamie Gold won the WSOP, but he's a pretty bad player.

Post reply on HN