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Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

bbc.com

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Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#121

Post by [deleted] »

gonzo41 wrote: post #14
ransom1538 wrote: post #5

One thing learned from: Volkswagen,airbnb,google,amazon,uber,facebook is to CHEAT. Illegal hotels, copyright infringement, skipping sales tax, fake cabs,profiting on personal data.. and now, illegal emission testing.

This is the logical conclusion when you allow corporations to be 'people' without the consequences of being a person. How do you send a company to jail? Its kinda of like that scene in fightclub where Edward Nortons character talks about the cost of doing a recall. The emissions scandal should have ended VW. Solution: Guillotine for corporate crime.

[deleted]

Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#122

Post by refurb »

ransom1538 wrote: post #92
TwoBit wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did Google, Amazon, and Facebook cheat, in your opinion?

Google: copyright infringement. [Crawling sites, taking data at will, then slapping ads on it, not paying the authors a portion of their ads] [4]. Tax evasion. [5--look for google] Amazon: sales tax avoidance (entire reason they exist) [1] later, federal tax evasion, including the double irish. [7]. Pusher of fake goods. [8] Pusher of fake reviews. Pusher of Chinese goods causing destructive env. practices. Facebook:…

Tax avoidance is cheating? I guess I better not max out my 401k this year for the tax advantage! That would be cheating!

Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#123

Post by wyager »

mehwoot wrote: post #77
wyager wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> violating the environmental laws of every western country. European nations aren't "western"?

European nations aren't "western"? Actually European nations is what it originally meant. Western European. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world The term originally had a literal geographic meaning. It contrasted Europe with the cultures and civilizations of the Middle East and North Africa, Sub-Saharan Africa, South Asia, Southeast Asia, and the remote Far East which early-modern Europeans saw as the East. In…

Yes, I didn't realize Volkswagen violated European laws as well. So when he said "Every western nation", I was confused.

Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#124

Post by ransom1538 »

refurb wrote: post #122
ransom1538 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google: copyright infringement. [Crawling sites, taking data at will, then slapping ads on it, not paying the authors a portion of their ads] [4]. Tax evasion. [5--look for google] Amazon: sales tax avoidance (entire reason they exist) [1] later, federal tax evasion, including the double irish. [7]. Pusher of fake goods. [8] Pusher of fake reviews. Pusher of Chinese goods causing destructive env. practices. Facebook:…

Tax avoidance is cheating? I guess I better not max out my 401k this year for the tax advantage! That would be cheating!

No but if you take your 401k money - withdraw it, create Irish shell companies, then have your employer pay the Irish shells , then tell the government you are Irish not a us citizen, liquidate all us holdings -- all to avoid IRS withholdings. Wtf? Please try it let me know how HRBlock goes.

Edit: under "do you have foreign accounts" check "no" as well. (Actually don't do any of this you will end up in federal prison)

Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#125

Post by maverick_iceman »

ransom1538 wrote: post #5

One thing learned from: Volkswagen,airbnb,google,amazon,uber,facebook is to CHEAT. Illegal hotels, copyright infringement, skipping sales tax, fake cabs,profiting on personal data.. and now, illegal emission testing.

You're cherrypicking examples. Plenty of companies went under for cheating, e.g. Enron. Also if you think that these companies offer no consumer benefits but profit only through cheating then you're a fool.

Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#126

Post by BuckRogers »

mulmen wrote: post #64
wyager wrote: post #59

I'm well over 200,000 miles on my '98 Land Cruiser and looking for a replacement, but frankly, Toyota's current offerings aren't looking too hot... The 200 series land cruiser is trending towards a suburb-mobile and is basically unsuited for offroad use, whereas the 70-, 80- and 100-series are awesome for offroading, even in stock off-the-lot configuration. The 4Runner is a decent offroad vehicle, but doesn't have th…

I am disappointed in Toyota's current offerings. Take a look at what is on the lot today and what was on the lot in 1997. 20 years ago you could pick up a world-class Supra or a proper Land Cruiser or a Tacoma or a Camry or Corolla that could practically be the last commuter car you ever need. All of them stubbornly reliable. many of the cars Toyota had on the lot in 1997 still sell for close to their retail price! T…

The Tacoma is still there? That's what I'm buying next time. According to all the studies, the reliability is still there too. It's all probability, doesn't make it a tank or bulletproof but Toyota is still the best bet other than Lexus.

The models don't change much because that's a part of maintaining quality and reliability. The US companies are kings of constant rehashing and quality suffers. If I want a cool car I'll buy a Dodge Hellcat or a Tesla.. otherwise I'm going Toyota next time. Tip of the hat though to Kia (and Hyundai), they've really been giving everyone fits.

Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#127

Post by gonzo41 »

Sacho wrote: post #118
voidlogic wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>though I hope you're joking about the guillotine I read that remark as this: If corporations are people legally, there should be certain crimes that lead to their dissolution. I assumed this was the proposal: If a corporation does something evil enough, its leaders going to prison and paying a fine isn't enough, it should face the corporate guillotine which revokes its incorporation.

What would that gain you? Wouldnt the same capital holders pool their wealth into a newly minted corporation to continue exploiting the resources they have accrued? Are you going to seize the assets of the corporation and redistribute them? How is your proposed dissolution different from a fine big enough to bankrupt a company?

Just quickly on my phone before I run to grab the train. You dissolve the entity and sell the assests to pay back the costs of damage. The people left high and dry by the loss of investment get the signal that there is more risk in involving yourself in companies that can really stuff people over through negligence or greed

I mean really after the damage that was done, you don't think companies like BP should still exist.

How about all those resource companies walking over the people of the third world. etc etc.

As for cutting peoples heads off...Who knows what this new america will bring :)

Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#128

Post by bmmayer1 »

voidlogic wrote: post #114
bmmayer1 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporate personhood is a long standing legal principle stretching back at least 400 years to the first joint stock corporations. The creation of limited liability vehicles for investors to pool resources, govern large cooperatives of individuals, simplify complex transactions, and protect investments and intellectual property has led to unprecedented levels of wealth creation for nations and people, and is arguably…

>though I hope you're joking about the guillotine I read that remark as this: If corporations are people legally, there should be certain crimes that lead to their dissolution. I assumed this was the proposal: If a corporation does something evil enough, its leaders going to prison and paying a fine isn't enough, it should face the corporate guillotine which revokes its incorporation.

Right, but one of the issues is that a corporate "person" isn't the same as an individual person, and they don't overlap completely. They are only treated as persons under the law with regard to certain rights/obligations (sue and be sued, open a bank account, pay taxes, etc). But a corporation isn't a person for purposes of criminal culpability; i.e. you could never arrest a corporation for murder. Though corporations are just groups of individuals who themselves could absolutely be guilty of crimes.

There's a whole section in the Wikipedia article on corporate personhood that addresses these misconceptions[1].

I guess the real world "corporate guillotine" is for a corporation to be sued/fined out of existence or go bankrupt, all of which can happen due to gross negligence, bad behavior, or criminal behavior (see: Gawker Media, Bear Stearns, etc). But obviously jail is reserved for individuals who commit actual crimes, not corporations who are, after all, merely legal vehicles for pooling resources.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood#Misconcep...

Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#129

Post by joecool1029 »

scott_karana wrote: post #86
joecool1029 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are mistaken on US regulation. They did not meet NOX emission limits in the US. Europe has stricter fuel regulation, less strict emission regulation so it was probably cool there. Every TDI model over there is usually tuned for better performance. Oh well, my chariot of lies gets bought back in 2 days. Best investment ever in a car! Since I got my parents and 4 other friends to buy TDI's too when they saw the mil…

So... they screwed you and your family over three times, and you're a happy customer?

Don't get me wrong, the above was annoying. But they were forced to pay for it and I came out ahead. There's no doubt in my mind that my 2012 model still polluted less than my former 1998 model. There were many times before the scandal broke that I considered removal of the DPF component to further improve efficiency. This would not have affected the NOX output, but would have reduced weight, fuel consumption, and cosmetic appeal. I wasn't keen on having the car blow raw diesel into the exhaust to regenerate the filter every few hundred miles. Would have averaged 50mpg instead of mid-40's...

I put over 100k mi on the car and will have received approx $19k for it after the goodwill + buyback. Total cost of ownership for 4 years of about $6k excluding fuel which cost about half as much as a gasser (savings was anywhere between $3-6k). So yeah, pretty happy all things considered.

Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#130

Post by mulmen »

BuckRogers wrote: post #126
mulmen wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am disappointed in Toyota's current offerings. Take a look at what is on the lot today and what was on the lot in 1997. 20 years ago you could pick up a world-class Supra or a proper Land Cruiser or a Tacoma or a Camry or Corolla that could practically be the last commuter car you ever need. All of them stubbornly reliable. many of the cars Toyota had on the lot in 1997 still sell for close to their retail price! T…

The Tacoma is still there? That's what I'm buying next time. According to all the studies, the reliability is still there too. It's all probability, doesn't make it a tank or bulletproof but Toyota is still the best bet other than Lexus. The models don't change much because that's a part of maintaining quality and reliability. The US companies are kings of constant rehashing and quality suffers. If I want a cool car…

The Tacoma is still available and still excellent but the Tacomas they built in the mid 90s are still in very high demand. My point in bringing them up is that they had a full lineup of truly excellent vehicles. The new ones are great pickups but they are expensive and like everything else awfully bloated.

In the 90s you could get an all wheel drive turbocharged Celica or a twin turbocharged Supra or the lightweight MR2 which was also available with a turbo. All of those cars were still as reliable as you would expect from Toyota but weren't simple appliances to get from A to B.

In the years since then Toyota has completely forgotten how to build an interesting car and has lost sight of what "car people" find appealing about cars. Toyotas aren't bad at all, the company just forgot about a bunch of the really cool stuff they used to do and I am disappointed about that because I think they could still do a lot of it.

If Dodge can build the Hellcat and Chevy can build the ZR-1 why can't Toyota build a proper Supra? I guess Lexus had the house-on-wheels LF-A but that's not going to fill the gap left by the Celica, Supra and MR2.

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