Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

bloomberg.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

271–280 of 371 posts

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#271

Post by battlebot »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #62
fergie wrote: post #45

I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that this may not be an altogether bad thing. From the article: "The foreign work visas were originally established to help U.S. companies recruit from abroad when they couldn’t find qualified local workers. But in recent years, there have been allegations the programs have been abused to bring in cheaper workers from overseas to fill jobs that otherwise may go to Americans…

When companies like Tata are fulfilling government contracts, they _should_ be filling those positions with local labour at local rates. Here's an alternate proposal. Suppose it would cost $70k for the wrong type of people to provide labor, and $100k for the right type of person to provide labor. Lets continue having labor sold by the lowest cost provider. But then lets engage in direct wealth transfers; we'll have t…

I don't think there is a "right" or "wrong" company providing the labor. I just think that by exploiting vulnerable non-citizen "guest" workers and promising to sponsor a green card, these companies have been able to suppress wages to an extent that I am not comfortable with. Also, H1B looks a lot like indentured servitude to me. I have watched close friends suffer through this process.

Foreign workers need full payment of competitive market rate wages as well as the ability to fully maneuver in the marketplace so that they can act in their own best interest. It's already hard enough for them coming to the US with less competitive skillsets, but if they could bargain freely, they could at least earn market-rate wages in their skill range and grow their careers organically.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#272

Post by jkaunisv1 »

kalleboo wrote: post #101
moomin wrote: post #55

Disclosure: my wife used to be on a work-permit scheme similar to H1B. The problem with all of these schemes is they're tied to a particular job. You give up that job, your right to remain is toast. This makes it hard to move to competitors and artificially depresses wages. In turn, this artificially affects native workers in the same industry. I think the solution here is more capitalism, not more government. Anyone…

In comparison, the visa (technically, "residency permit") scheme in Japan (widely viewed as a xenophobic, anti-immigrant country) is tied to the person. You get sponsored in by an employer in a field, and then your residency is tied to you being employed in that field. You can instantly turn around and quit that job and find another one in the same field. Policy is you have 30 [or was it 60?90? something like that] d…

The xenophobic view also comes from how you're treated if you are a visible minority there, comments from elected officials, the hoops you have to jump through to become a permanent resident...

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#273

Post by kamaal »

Chris2048 wrote: post #189
supercanuck wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guarantee you, the Infosys Support Analysts at my company do not have the option of creating a "startup" any more than a plantation worker can start a plantation.

Why? lack of money? Maybe if wages increased...

Why what?

Why they can't start a start up?

Well then there are reasons hard to understand unless you understand the socio-economic context in which a lot of people grow up in India. Not the kind of ones who you see come to US universities for higher education.

But there are a lot of other exceptionally brilliant people who come from poor families, to whom any opportunity is precious. Parents come from poor families typically from rural setting having worked often in hard conditions all their lives and made unbelievable sacrifices so that their kids can get some decent education and a shot at working at regular job that pays well. The kind of poverty I'm describing doesn't exist in US, so it will be hard for you to understand. Its not the $40K/year working-at-walmart/McD poverty. Its way worse.

Now when you look at this from the beginning to the end. Such people have to work on whatever opportunity they get, at whatever costs. No matter how hard they have to work. No matter how many extra hours/day they have to put, No matter how many weekends they have to show up at work. None of it matters. Because its all an opportunity so rare people before you didn't get.

Which is why I find names like 'yes-men' or the kinds used in some parent posts in this thread offensive. Unfortunately there are a lot of upper middle class Indian who themselves don't understand this.

Some people just don't have the luxury to make decisions they way others have.

If you are in a position to afford education in a US university, or quit your job and work on a start up. Or quit your job and do something else because your boss asked to you put in extra hours at work. You are already in a very different plane of luxury and will likely not understand why its not easy for others to do the same.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#274

Post by geebee »

moomin wrote: post #55

Disclosure: my wife used to be on a work-permit scheme similar to H1B. The problem with all of these schemes is they're tied to a particular job. You give up that job, your right to remain is toast. This makes it hard to move to competitors and artificially depresses wages. In turn, this artificially affects native workers in the same industry. I think the solution here is more capitalism, not more government. Anyone…

I agree. Skilled immigration doesn't have much of a downside for the US in my opinion, but immigrants do need to be free to decide what skills they choose to pursue, in response to market signals.

If silicon valley finds that people with the skills to become software developers prefer other fields, that's the market's answer. Forcing immigrants to work as software developers as a condition of living and working in the US is a horrible solution.

Immigrants must be free to participate in labor markets as they choose, without their options dictated to them by corporate "sponsors". Any attempts to "reform" this visa tat doesn't address this core issue (which in my opinion is also a basic human rights issue) is going to fail.

General skilled immigration would be good for the US, and I've love to see the H1B replaced with something that truly preserves the rights of the immigrant to choose his or her own path in life. If becoming a dev in the valley isn't part of that, well, that just means that skilled immigrants have found something higher value to do. Silicon valley can compete for them, just like everyone else, but I see no reason to interfere with the proper functioning of labor markets to make sure they get to hire on their own terms.

Maybe private offices, and less "young people are just smarter" gaffes would be a good place to start?

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#275

Post by codeinstyle »

yourapostasy wrote: post #237
belltaco wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The tech worker market segment the body shops proliferate within in the US is one-way permeable: from developing to developed world markets. But software services flow the other way. Google, Facebook, Microsoft etc. are big players in India, and US employees benefit from increased revenue and profit from those populations. You cannot arbitrarily pick and choose the aspects of globalization that hurt you vs. that ben…

> ... and US employees benefit from increased revenue and profit from those populations. US employees of "Google, Facebook, Microsoft etc.", or US employees in aggregate?

From the context, I believe the OP meant US employees of the said companies.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#276

Post by User23 »

crdoconnor wrote: post #148
yummyfajitas wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, it's a race's duty to place it's own people first. (Not actually my opinion, but for the sake of argument...) What principle makes your favored accident of birth ok to discriminate on, but not mine?

The fact that the institutions you are born under (like government) are real and race isn't ( http://www.vox.com/2014/10/10/6943461/race-social-construct-... ). Are you suggesting India become the 51st state of America?

This is an anti-science position.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#277

Post by User23 »

mavelikara wrote: post #244
0xfeba wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many of those hired on H1B are doing roles for which they simply can't get enough local talent. I can only speak to my experience. At my current employer we have about 60-70% H1Bs in my department (development). Even more in QA. And they aren't particularly talented. After reviewing the public information though, they are getting paid 50% of what I am. So they are living with multiple other visa workers in one apar…

I am not working at the Big 4, am on H-1B, and am a hiring manager at an SV firm. When I hire an H-1B it is not about the money. Not challenging your experience, but pointing out that there are other possibilities also.

The inclination for people to hire those who remind them of themselves is well documented which means if you're not doing it to save money then you're doing it to favor your tribe.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#278

Post by mavelikara »

0xfeba wrote: post #269
mavelikara wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not working at the Big 4, am on H-1B, and am a hiring manager at an SV firm. When I hire an H-1B it is not about the money. Not challenging your experience, but pointing out that there are other possibilities also.

Well, yes. I mean at the Big 4 (and really, this applies to any large, cutting-edge company: Twitter, Oracle, etc.) they do reach out of the US to find great talent for higher up positions. But they also abuse the visa process for lower wages in lower positions. Lots of other companies without hype just want lower wage workers. I figure these are the majority.

> But they also abuse the visa process for lower wages in lower positions.

No, in lower-level positions also they are paid the same as their colleagues who are citizens. During the hiring process, the immigration status is not get considered as a positive or negative qualifier.

> Lots of other companies without hype just want lower wage workers.

I agree.

> I figure these are the majority.

This is possible, but I am not sure. It is true that many companies who get the most visas don't pay well. But the well-paying firms do not apply for lots of visas, and there are lots of them, leading to a long thin-tailed distribution. Also, many of these H-1B immigrants, once they get their green cards, go on to found successful startups increasing the size of the economic pie for everyone. One such person, Jyoti Bansal, sold his startup for $3.7B last week.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#279

Post by mavelikara »

User23 wrote: post #277
mavelikara wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not working at the Big 4, am on H-1B, and am a hiring manager at an SV firm. When I hire an H-1B it is not about the money. Not challenging your experience, but pointing out that there are other possibilities also.

The inclination for people to hire those who remind them of themselves is well documented which means if you're not doing it to save money then you're doing it to favor your tribe.

I hire both people on H-1B visas and those who are not. All I was saying that the immigration status does not positively or negatively affects a candidate's job application, where I work.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#280

Post by sidlls »

kamaal wrote: post #273
Chris2048 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? lack of money? Maybe if wages increased...

Why what? Why they can't start a start up? Well then there are reasons hard to understand unless you understand the socio-economic context in which a lot of people grow up in India. Not the kind of ones who you see come to US universities for higher education. But there are a lot of other exceptionally brilliant people who come from poor families, to whom any opportunity is precious. Parents come from poor families t…

> The kind of poverty I'm describing doesn't exist in US,

It most definitely does. In the US there is "working class poor" (the kind you describe with the $40k/yr McJob), and then there is _poverty_: lack of adequate housing (e.g. shanties with pest infestations), lack of adequate clean water (not just occasionally, either, but consistently), lack of adequate food ("food insecurity", which is a terrible description for "we go without one or more meals regularly during the week, and sometimes have to beg for charitable food from neighbors or food banks"), and so on. These folks also typically don't have access to anything like sufficient education. The notion that "third world style poverty doesn't exist in the US" is a great propaganda victory for the wealthy elite here, but it's just not true.

Post reply on HN