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Make America Hate Again

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Re: Make America Hate Again

#291

Post by ThomPete »

derrickdirge wrote: post #254
ThomPete wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well first you need to establish that Trump are actually doing those things. This is the primary issues once you actually dig into things he might just as well just be nationalist which means occupied with US citizens not world citizens. From the perspective of a nationalist the extreme measures Trump have taken are simply to secure the country. From the perspective of a globalist he is destroying the very foundation…

It would be easier to see his actions as 'just nationalist' if even one of the countries whose citizens have been banned from entering the US wasn't a Muslim-majority country.

20 years ago it was the Russians and communist countries. Today it's muslim countries.

Risk change.

I think this ban was extreme amateurish done and I am fundamentally against it. But the job of the require them sometimes to take som drastic moved.

I think Adam Scott have a pretty good take on it.

http://blog.dilbert.com/post/156532225711/the-persuasion-fil...

Re: Make America Hate Again

#292

Post by krapp »

soneca wrote: post #6
_xhok wrote: post #2

I agree with his stance on this, and I think Trump and his latest executive orders are awful, but I also think that at this point, "hatred," "bigotry," and "racism" should be excised from public discourse. These are labels. No one really knows what "hate" means anymore, but because people are emotional, they see the word, recall what they think of Trump, and think, "yeah, that's hateful!" This is a problem for two re…

"People become sick of this, and vote Trump just to fuck with everyone." This is extremely superficial, arrogant, even offensive to people who voted for Trump. And that is the reason why Trump won IMO. Opposition couldnt understand (not even recognize) the legitimate and valid thoughtful reasons people had to vote for Trump.

>This is extremely superficial, arrogant, even offensive to people who voted for Trump.

It's also what Trump supporters on this very site and elsewhere have stated to be their rationale. Trump was meant to be a "brick through the window of the establishment" thrown by angry, conservative, lower-middle class white voters driven to desperation by globalism and liberal cultural oppression, who wanted the existing system destroyed so that something more representative of their values could replace it. Various articles have been written about the phenomenon, so clearly it was a factor.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#293

Post by reitanqild »

derrickdirge wrote: post #285
reitanqild wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think yummyfajitas is. I don't like Trump but I still agree that racist is now used as a general slur.

You're still missing the point the parent was making.

What then? This:

"it seems like you are missing the point: in a pervasivly racist society, discriminatory behaviors creep in the subconscious of everyone, black/white/antiracist/whatever, and we have to consciously struggle with them."

?

I have recently argued against my own misunderstanding of someones explaination and find that embarrassing so I am actually listening.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#294

Post by jazzyk »

derrickdirge wrote: post #282
jazzyk wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to Wikipedia, no credible evidence for the "self-hating, closeted gay" narrative has been found by the FBI. The killer was upset about the US presence in Iraq/Syria and had been preparing the attack for some time, possibly helped by his wife (arrested and charged with helping him). Both were Muslims. Sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Orlando_nightclub_shootin... https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/16/…

But of course it's not that simple. From the wiki: >Mateen's ex-wife, however, claimed that his father called him gay while in her presence. Speaking on her behalf, her current fiancé said that she, his family, and others believed he was gay, and that "the FBI asked her not to tell this to the American media"

Because conservative, old Muslim men never call anyone "gay", right? For wearing a trendy piece of clothing, for example?

My male friend has been called "gay" a few times because he likes Broadway shows.

You can believe in any hearsay you want, but at the end of the day, this was a US-hating, Muslim guy/couple, killing LGBT people (for whom many Muslims have special hatred, and like to throw them off the roofs).

Re: Make America Hate Again

#295

Post by hsod »

losteverything wrote: post #269
beat wrote: post #210

Regardless of how one feels about the order itself, the fact is, courts are ordering it temporarily suspended, and the Trump administration is ignoring court orders. Legislators are going to airports to see that travelers arriving in their district and being detained are allowed access to counsel, and they're not allowed to meet with the detainees. This is a constitutional crisis. This is not about the right or wrong…

I have faith our process will "manage" this. But I find myself VERY upset reading your comment as well as many other reactions to exe. order How much more can I take? I see signs "whatever it takes to remove trump" that has so much negativity behind it. "Trump" is now a word like being "gay" was growing up. This is quite unhealthy for me. I compare it to second hand smoke before the surgeon generals report.

Something very very bad is happening to our institutions. Resistance will be unpleasant and scary. Stay strong, stay close to your support system, and keep your eye on the ball.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#296

Post by mikeyouse »

pluma wrote: post #188
soneca wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"People become sick of this, and vote Trump just to fuck with everyone." This is extremely superficial, arrogant, even offensive to people who voted for Trump. And that is the reason why Trump won IMO. Opposition couldnt understand (not even recognize) the legitimate and valid thoughtful reasons people had to vote for Trump.

I'm still struggling to understand where this obsession with explaining how Trump got people to vote for him comes from. The real killing blow was the low turnout for the Democrat candidate. Trump only had to beat Clinton and practically nobody (outside the most progressive parts of the US) voted for Clinton. Trump may have swayed some undecided voters in his favours as a protest vote but all he had to do was rally t…

The tricky part about Clinton "not matching the numbers" of Obama's reelection is that she received more votes than he did. She received more votes than everyone who has ever ran for President with the exception of Obama in 2008.

Nobody is claiming that Trump's win is illegitimate due to the electoral vs. popular mismatch, but it's clear that something is seriously wrong when a candidate can win an election by several million votes and still lose the presidency. If I were a Democrat, I'd be even more annoyed that my party had won the popular vote four times in the 21st Century and only won the presidency twice.

I think the obvious answer is to increase the number of representatives in the House. Wyoming residents currently have 3x the influence in presidential elections as people from Texas, which is seriously askew given the relative power of the two.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#297

Post by yongjik »

jazzyk wrote: post #288
yongjik wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using Obama's "Iraq refugees ban" to justify Trump's action was a weak argument anyway, but the time window for the argument's viability has passed hours ago. Now you will have to find out cases when Obama ordered government officers to ignore court order. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/29/customs-bord... > Customs and Border Protection (CBP) agents defied the orders of federal judges regarding Donald T…

"Using Obama's "Iraq refugees ban" to justify Trump's action was a weak argument anyway" Instead of providing supporting argument for your above statement, you conveniently change the subject to another, only loosely related matter. Whataboutism at its best :-)

When your coworker is being disruptive and you ask HR to intervene, and when someone else wants to argue that other people in the company did something similar in other (different) situations, it is not whataboutism to point out that our disruptive coworker just punched a security guard.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#298

Post by humanrebar »

fridsun wrote: post #242
cronjobber wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actual fracturing wouldn't necessarily be in his interest, but I guess we can assume that's not the goal anyway. The goal would have to be silencing the social media presence of the right, a return to the status quo ante of public discourse.

> The goal would have to be silencing the social media presence of the right *the alt-right Or, less euphemistically, the neo-Nazi.

I'll reference the other thread about 'racism'; I don't know what 'alt-right' even means, so I don't know how to have an opinion about it.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#299

Post by cr0sh »

beat wrote: post #278
losteverything wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have faith our process will "manage" this. But I find myself VERY upset reading your comment as well as many other reactions to exe. order How much more can I take? I see signs "whatever it takes to remove trump" that has so much negativity behind it. "Trump" is now a word like being "gay" was growing up. This is quite unhealthy for me. I compare it to second hand smoke before the surgeon generals report.

Two weeks ago, I had faith in the process. I'm rapidly losing that faith. Where I live, we have 30,000 Somali immigrants (and some of their US-born citizen children). I'm starting to think of what we would have to do to hide Somalis in our house to protect them from arrest and deportation. And you think you're upset? Why on Earth should I ever have to consider hiding people in my house, here in America?

My wife and I were discussing similar scenarios over the weekend. She noted that as long as "we" can still have these discussions - as long as "we" still feel like we can have these discussions and do have these discussions (ie - we're not self-censoring or being censored by the govt) - then things are still working.

I understand your position - do your best to continue "keeping the faith" in our institutions, people, citizens, etc. Ultimately, know you're not alone - that there are many others out there feeling the same as you, and somehow we will right the wrongs against our country and Constitution as required and needed.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#300

Post by SpicyPython »

yongjik wrote: post #297
jazzyk wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Using Obama's "Iraq refugees ban" to justify Trump's action was a weak argument anyway" Instead of providing supporting argument for your above statement, you conveniently change the subject to another, only loosely related matter. Whataboutism at its best :-)

When your coworker is being disruptive and you ask HR to intervene, and when someone else wants to argue that other people in the company did something similar in other (different) situations, it is not whataboutism to point out that our disruptive coworker just punched a security guard.

How is this really relevant to the argument?
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