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Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

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Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#221

Post by belltaco »

yourapostasy wrote: post #187
gutnor wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be good overall, but not necessarily for the US worker in particular. The thing is, tech worker market is global and large companies always have the choice to outsource plain and simple. The H-1B visa trick is a win-win between foreign worker and local companies (loss/draw for local worker and loss for foreign companies). Local companies get locked-in resources in a friendly timezone, foreign worker get US exp…

> The thing is, tech worker market is global and large companies always have the choice to outsource plain and simple. The tech worker market segment the body shops proliferate within in the US is one-way permeable: from developing to developed world markets. There is nowhere near the kind of market demand for developed world tech workers in developing world markets. Without that equivalency, claiming a "global" mark…

>The tech worker market segment the body shops proliferate within in the US is one-way permeable: from developing to developed world markets.

But software services flow the other way. Google, Facebook, Microsoft etc. are big players in India, and US employees benefit from increased revenue and profit from those populations.

You cannot arbitrarily pick and choose the aspects of globalization that hurt you vs. that benefit you.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#222

Post by Glyptodon »

The idea that Visas would be awarded from highest offered salary to lowest until cap is hit does actually seem halfway reasonable -- if you really truly need somebody you'll likely be willing to pay them more. Whereas if you make your money off of underpaying large numbers of workers, you'll probably end up sitting at the end of the line.

(Not that I'll be a fan of the program exactly, just that I've heard worse ideas.)

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#223

Post by seppin »

paradite wrote: post #33

Interesting. Singapore introduced the exact same policy (hire Singaporeans first) a few years ago. I thought it was well-intentioned even though it would hurt myself as a foreigner. Edit to add source: http://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/firms-must-show-they-t...

Every country has some version of this law. Your employer needs to provide some kind of proof (they have to do a song and dance everyone knows is BS) that a local cannot do the job.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#224

Post by pm90 »

gotchange wrote: post #130

> Hira, who has done extensive research on the subject, points out workers at outsourcers are typically not treated as well as others. The median wage at outsourcing firms for H-1B workers was less than $70,000, while Apple, Google and Microsoft paid their employees in the program more than $100,000, according to data he collected. That suggests the American companies are going after true, highly skilled employees, w…

OK so we need to agree on the definition of a market here. I'm gonna take the US tech market as the collection of all citizens and legal immigrants with the relevant skills.

Now, if you can't get a majority of workers in the market to work for you for a lower wage, that is not fair market value, by definition. If you need to bring in legal immigrants and pay them less than the above mentioned fair market value, they are being underpaid.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#226

Post by pm90 »

Neliquat wrote: post #195
freehunter wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, it's a fun thing to think about, especially knowing it will never happen. Texas fantasizes about it all the time. Every few months there's some kind of map being posted here about how to split the US into different countries or re-draw the state borders or some other fantasy map. It's just a fun daydream. I live in Michigan and several times we've had people from the Upper Peninsula try to get support for them to…

Its symbolic of not playing well with others and being bigoted against their view of the rest of the country. See: Texas Seriously, it may be all in fun, but it paints a sad message about the perceptions of people who participate.

I think its just one way to vent frustration in the face of powerlessness. Like a protest against State's powerlessness. So Texas secessionists may talk and hold rallies but they don't (IMO, living in Austin, Texas) seriously consider leaving.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#227

Post by vira »

taneq wrote: post #136
yummyfajitas wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are discussing hiring local workers, not outsourcing. The local workers just happen to be brown and born in a different place. The money will still be spent in your own economy. The choices are threefold: My preferred scheme (1): Low income taxpayers keep $30k and spend it themselves. Government pays for $70k from lowest bidding software engineer (possibly an Indian). Fergie's preferred scheme (2): Low income taxp…

> We are discussing hiring local workers, not outsourcing. The local workers just happen to be brown and born in a different place. One distinction is that many immigrant workers will be sending money back to their family in their home country, resulting in a net drain on the economy in which they're working. I'm not saying this is a good reason to make life harder for them, but I do think it's a fair point.

It's not that simple. An Indian expatriate's remittance may leave American shores, for example, but then re-enters when their family buys iPhones, Ford's and Hershey's.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#228

Post by [deleted] »

taneq wrote: post #136
yummyfajitas wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are discussing hiring local workers, not outsourcing. The local workers just happen to be brown and born in a different place. The money will still be spent in your own economy. The choices are threefold: My preferred scheme (1): Low income taxpayers keep $30k and spend it themselves. Government pays for $70k from lowest bidding software engineer (possibly an Indian). Fergie's preferred scheme (2): Low income taxp…

> We are discussing hiring local workers, not outsourcing. The local workers just happen to be brown and born in a different place. One distinction is that many immigrant workers will be sending money back to their family in their home country, resulting in a net drain on the economy in which they're working. I'm not saying this is a good reason to make life harder for them, but I do think it's a fair point.

[deleted]

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#229

Post by [deleted] »

taneq wrote: post #136
yummyfajitas wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are discussing hiring local workers, not outsourcing. The local workers just happen to be brown and born in a different place. The money will still be spent in your own economy. The choices are threefold: My preferred scheme (1): Low income taxpayers keep $30k and spend it themselves. Government pays for $70k from lowest bidding software engineer (possibly an Indian). Fergie's preferred scheme (2): Low income taxp…

> We are discussing hiring local workers, not outsourcing. The local workers just happen to be brown and born in a different place. One distinction is that many immigrant workers will be sending money back to their family in their home country, resulting in a net drain on the economy in which they're working. I'm not saying this is a good reason to make life harder for them, but I do think it's a fair point.

[deleted]

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#230

Post by infinite8s »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #124
DarkKomunalec wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it is not equivalent. Hiring local has many beneficial effects over outsourcing - increased labour demand increases wages, the local pool of talent and technology is developed, and the money you spend will in turn mostly be spent in your own economy, growing it and paying taxes to your government. You could argue that these secondary effects do not outweigh the higher cost, and I'm sure sometimes that would be tr…

We are discussing hiring local workers, not outsourcing. The local workers just happen to be brown and born in a different place. The money will still be spent in your own economy. The choices are threefold: My preferred scheme (1): Low income taxpayers keep $30k and spend it themselves. Government pays for $70k from lowest bidding software engineer (possibly an Indian). Fergie's preferred scheme (2): Low income taxp…

In scheme 1, does the lowest bidding software engineer have the right to stay in the US if they don't have work? If not, maybe that's why they can be the lowest bidder. Any American born developer of minority descent isn't going to underbid to that level. So your preferred scheme allows the free flow of capital but not labor.
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