Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#211

Post by nine_k » Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 3:44 PM UTC

yourapostasy wrote: post #187

gutnor wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be good overall, but not necessarily for the US worker in particular. The thing is, tech worker market is global and large companies always have the choice to outsource plain and simple. The H-1B visa trick is a win-win between foreign worker and local companies (loss/draw for local worker and loss for foreign companies). Local companies get locked-in resources in a friendly timezone, foreign worker get US exp…

> The thing is, tech worker market is global and large companies always have the choice to outsource plain and simple. The tech worker market segment the body shops proliferate within in the US is one-way permeable: from developing to developed world markets. There is nowhere near the kind of market demand for developed world tech workers in developing world markets. Without that equivalency, claiming a "global" mark…

Goa is India, and quite a few (anecdotally) tech people moved there for several years (IDK about "permanently") for its lower cost of living and nice climate. They continue to work remotely for multi-national / Western companies, affording them a quite high local standard of living, and allowing to make savings.

These same people won't stay there if / when they decided to have children and educate them, though.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#212

Post by vthallam » Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 3:45 PM UTC

MarkMc wrote: post #65

threeseed wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's not that good for software developers or anyone really. Many of those hired on H1B are doing roles for which they simply can't get enough local talent. And so all that is going to happen is that companies are going to shift entire projects offshore or simply not take on as many projects. There does need to be reform. But frankly given the chaotic manner in which the Trump administration is crafting and implem…

> Many of those hired on H1B are doing roles for which they simply can't get local talent So it's not just a way to get regular software developers at a cheap price? OK let's raise the minimum salary requirement for H1B visas to $120k.

Sure. A higher pay base sounds good, but how do you set the price to the location? 120K in SFO != 120K in Dallas(No state tax).

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#213

Post by supercanuck » Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 3:45 PM UTC

Chris2048 wrote: post #189

supercanuck wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guarantee you, the Infosys Support Analysts at my company do not have the option of creating a "startup" any more than a plantation worker can start a plantation.

Why? lack of money? Maybe if wages increased...

because the vast majority are doing support tickets stuck in a support center at a company like South California Edison, Verizon or Dow Chemical working with Enterprise Software like Oracle, Informatica, SAP etc. They are four to a room in an apartment in Minnesota where they send 3/4 of their paycheck back to India to support their family.

In your mind, you are thinking of the 10-15% working in Silicon Valley as coders with people skills.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#214

Post by pm90 » Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 3:49 PM UTC

1019280121 wrote: post #114

yummyfajitas wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, it's a race's duty to place it's own people first. (Not actually my opinion, but for the sake of argument...) What principle makes your favored accident of birth ok to discriminate on, but not mine?

So, according to your philosophy, I could go to Saudi Arabia and claim an oil well? What is your principle? Anarchism, world government, no borders? I honestly do not understand your point.

> So, according to your philosophy, I could go to Saudi Arabia and claim an oil well?

No, but you should be given a fair chance to arrive legally and legally buy land and legally search for oil. Not just take something that belongs to others, which is a violation of property rights.

He is basically trying to bring out the point that an accident of birth should not be the basis for discrimination. He is doing that by making analogies that are uncomfortable rather than stating it outright. That is his point :).

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#215

Post by nine_k » Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 3:49 PM UTC

akhilcacharya wrote: post #183

battlebot wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did you get "higher than average salary?" All the H1Bs I have known, and I have worked with hundreds of them over the years, have all been underpaid compared to market rates. Some were outright exploited by ridiculous middle man consulting arrangements consisting of multiple levels taking a percentage of the hourly from the actual workers. I have nothing against foreign workers, but if they are going to be allowe…

People with H1Bs at Google and Facebook make far, far more than the average in the US (3x average salary, 1.5x average SWE salary).

As someone who worked for Google while on an H1B, I can attest to this. Also, the consulting firm that I worked through (not directly hired by Google) took a hearty cut of that.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#216

Post by KKKKkkkk1 » Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 3:49 PM UTC

794CD01 wrote: post #190

wiredfool wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe. Here's the thing. Think about this as an MVP slapped together in a weekend, about to hit the biggest batch of software testers around. They're going to find show stopping bugs. And every one of those bugs is going to be someone's life, uprooted. Visa allocation changes _going_forward_ are certainly a reasonable thing. Fully within the realm of policy. But I'm going to bet that these changes are going to be of…

That has some huge problems which we've all seen this weekend, but in the long run, is that really worse than the old style of decades of inaction and debate topped off by an ineffectual bill that does nothing? It's pretty similar to the disruption in the tech industry. "What do you mean you deploy bugs to production and then fix them after end users report them? Haven't you heard of QA?!!"

There's also a third option.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#217

Post by 794CD01 » Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 3:51 PM UTC

mattnewton wrote: post #205

794CD01 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That has some huge problems which we've all seen this weekend, but in the long run, is that really worse than the old style of decades of inaction and debate topped off by an ineffectual bill that does nothing? It's pretty similar to the disruption in the tech industry. "What do you mean you deploy bugs to production and then fix them after end users report them? Haven't you heard of QA?!!"

Yes. The process you described is called democracy. Unilateral executive action of the top cabinet alone outside times of declared war (and even sometimes within a war) would be called dictatorial or authoritarian. The debates, compromises checks are not just a tradition to be distrupted.

Dictatorial and authoritarian are not necessarily negatives. Calls for a businessman to cut through the red tape and run the government more efficiently are almost as old as American democracy itself. Call it whatever you like, we knew that's how this candidate wanted to operate and voted for it anyway.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#218

Post by gregshap » Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 3:55 PM UTC

ggame wrote: post #4

Why would SV clash with Trump on this? This seems like a sensible solution to the problem and one I've seen posted multiple times here on HN.

It's definitely a program that could use reform. However from what little the article mentions of the 'draft' executive order, I don't see many specific policy changes to the status quo.

If this follows the pattern of 'make a big news splash' and 'leave huge ambiguity regarding actual policy' then it is really not helpful for any kind of business decision.

The rational response right now might be to avoid new H1B hiring completely, lest you spend months on an application that later gets nullified by shifting policy. That's not a win for SV companies that favor H1B hiring.

If they make clear changes that do help create more visas for high skilled workers, I agree that's a win for silicon valley, and a win for US labor. Overall the US does well when other countries send their top brains here.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#219

Post by pm90 » Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 4:00 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #182

crdoconnor wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that the institutions you are born under (like government) are real and race isn't ( http://www.vox.com/2014/10/10/6943461/race-social-construct-... ). Are you suggesting India become the 51st state of America?

All your reasons why race isn't real is simply because legal/cultural definitions of it can change dependent on legal and social norms. So can the idea of "Americanness" - either laws around citizenship/work permission/etc, or cultural/social norms around this.

I'll take a stab: the world is fundamentally unfair to a certain extent...but we want to reduce that. In a perfect world, there should be no restrictions on immigration. However, we live in a world with vast inequalities and differences in culture, wealth etc. So while nationalism is unfair we live with it for now. Racism is analogous, but it concerned people within the US border, governed by US law, already part of US society, and its important for the fairness within the country and society that it be eliminated (not to mention that minorities did protest against institutional racism....and they could not be deported as they are US citizens).

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#220

Post by mattnewton » Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 4:01 PM UTC

794CD01 wrote: post #217

mattnewton wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. The process you described is called democracy. Unilateral executive action of the top cabinet alone outside times of declared war (and even sometimes within a war) would be called dictatorial or authoritarian. The debates, compromises checks are not just a tradition to be distrupted.

Dictatorial and authoritarian are not necessarily negatives. Calls for a businessman to cut through the red tape and run the government more efficiently are almost as old as American democracy itself. Call it whatever you like, we knew that's how this candidate wanted to operate and voted for it anyway.

The problem is that many people thought they needed to take Trump's plans & pronouncements metaphorically when they voted for him. People who worked for him even http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/trump-symbolically-ant...

The problem more generally with that is that once you give that much power up with out an expiration date it will be very hard to restore back to a moderate position.

And even the proponents of banning muslims to cut back on terrorists entering should be upset at the implementation, because the ban hits none of the countries who have sent us actual real successful terrorists like Saudia Arabia or the UEA. So even if you think it's worth stretching out our democracy to get a no-nonsense strongman into fix border security, you should be upset that this ham handed approach hits the wrong countries, generates backlash, and will likely be repealed by federal judges, making it ineffective and worse than nothing at all.