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Carbon monoxide poisoning from 3D laser printer may have killed Berkeley couple

sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com

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Re: Carbon monoxide poisoning from 3D laser printer may have killed Berkeley couple

#101

Post by allenrabinovich »

Hi folks. Val and Roger were dear friends, and I am on the ground here, and I'd like to respectfully ask that you refrain from speculation. The press is rushing to print sensational items, and they don't know the actual facts.

I've been talking to the police directly, and nothing is conclusive yet. Nothing has actually been ruled out, nor determined to be the cause. They don't even have full toxicology reports yet, those take days and sometimes weeks.

On a personal note, I can tell you that there were two devices in the house, a small 3D printer, and a small laser cutter, that were used for building models and rigs for scientific research. Val was an immaculate engineer, and conformed to all safety rules in operating these machines. To the best of our knowledge, neither of the machines were operating the night they passed away.

Again, please refrain from fear-mongering and speculation. I know it's natural for engineers to attack unsolved problems, but you are not working with correct or full data. Once more data is available, we will write up a complete and truthful statement to try and provide closure on this issue.

Re: Carbon monoxide poisoning from 3D laser printer may have killed Berkeley couple

#102

Post by JshWright »

phkahler wrote: post #92
stcredzero wrote: post #18

CO poisoning is cumulative. It takes a long time for CO to get unstuck from hemoglobin. (About 2 weeks, IIRC.) It could have snuck up on them slowly, then one evening with the cats "napping" they felt particularly tired and thought to themselves, "We must be in hibernation mode from the chilly weather," then they went to sleep then never woke up. CO is odorless. You might get a headache, or you might only feel tired.…

>> About 2 weeks, IIRC. Does the CO actually get out or do the red blood cells die and get replaced?

It lets go on its own. The levels in your blood fall by half every few hours.

Re: Carbon monoxide poisoning from 3D laser printer may have killed Berkeley couple

#103

Post by nickrivadeneira »

Animats wrote: post #93
danshapiro wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm the CEO and cofounder of Glowforge - we're so saddened by this tragedy. Our product was not involved, but that doesn't make us feel any better about this loss. If you use a laser, ours or anyone else's, please go back right now and re-read the safety instructions. Accidents like this should never happen. My heart breaks for those affected by this.

OK, it's good to know it wasn't yours. Thanks. It would be appropriate to put a CO detector in your units before somebody does that with one of yours. That definitely needs to be in the "filtered" units that are supposed to operate with no ventilation.

Might be worth editing your original comment to remove the suggestion that it's a Glowforge, just to avoid unnecessarily associating a specific company that wasn't involved in this tragedy.

Re: Carbon monoxide poisoning from 3D laser printer may have killed Berkeley couple

#104

Post by mcguire »

JshWright wrote: post #83
dghughes wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a fascination with CO poisoning for some reason or at least the chemistry behind it. CO has more than 200 times the affinity for hemoglobin than oxygen does. You can't just go outside to get fresh air since the CO just won't let go. I believe the normal way it works is oxygen and carbon dioxide use different sections of hemoglobin molecule so they never interfere with the way each are transported. But CO hogs…

> You can't just go outside to get fresh air since the CO just won't let go. Yes you can... http://www.remsaeducation.com/news/carbon-monoxide-poisoning...

"After the patient has been removed to a safe area, it is important to immediately begin administration of high concentration oxygen to maximize hemoglobin oxygen saturation. Treatment and monitoring of the patient with CO exposure should continue on scene and en route to the hospital. Continuously monitor SpO2 and SpCO levels, obtain a 12-lead EKG and monitor the ECG en route. Remember that SpO2 monitoring alone is unreliable as you may get a falsely normal reading in the presence of carbon monoxide poisoning."

Re: Carbon monoxide poisoning from 3D laser printer may have killed Berkeley couple

#105

Post by JshWright »

pmoriarty wrote: post #25
stcredzero wrote: post #18

CO poisoning is cumulative. It takes a long time for CO to get unstuck from hemoglobin. (About 2 weeks, IIRC.) It could have snuck up on them slowly, then one evening with the cats "napping" they felt particularly tired and thought to themselves, "We must be in hibernation mode from the chilly weather," then they went to sleep then never woke up. CO is odorless. You might get a headache, or you might only feel tired.…

What CO detectors would you recommend?

Any off the shelf product should be fine (there are standards they have to meet). Kiddie and First Alert are both well regarded brands.

I use First Alert personally (they have model with Z-Wave integration that ties into my home automation system). We carry a few Kiddie smoke/CO detectors on the fire truck to install if we notice a home doesn't have one (or if the one they had failed).

Re: Carbon monoxide poisoning from 3D laser printer may have killed Berkeley couple

#106

Post by blisterpeanuts »

allenrabinovich wrote: post #101

Hi folks. Val and Roger were dear friends, and I am on the ground here, and I'd like to respectfully ask that you refrain from speculation. The press is rushing to print sensational items, and they don't know the actual facts. I've been talking to the police directly, and nothing is conclusive yet. Nothing has actually been ruled out, nor determined to be the cause. They don't even have full toxicology reports yet, t…

I'm very sorry for your loss; what a terrible tragedy.

Re: Carbon monoxide poisoning from 3D laser printer may have killed Berkeley couple

#107

Post by JshWright »

mcguire wrote: post #104
JshWright wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can't just go outside to get fresh air since the CO just won't let go. Yes you can... http://www.remsaeducation.com/news/carbon-monoxide-poisoning...

" After the patient has been removed to a safe area, it is important to immediately begin administration of high concentration oxygen to maximize hemoglobin oxygen saturation. Treatment and monitoring of the patient with CO exposure should continue on scene and en route to the hospital. Continuously monitor SpO2 and SpCO levels, obtain a 12-lead EKG and monitor the ECG en route. Remember that SpO2 monitoring alone is…

As with all poisons, that depends on the dose... For a low level exposure, fresh air is truly all that's needed.

I'm not trying to suggest that more advanced treatment is never necessary (I am the person who provides that treatment...), my point is simply that there are _many_ people who experience low level, chronic exposures to carbon monoxide that require no further treatment than leaving the environment.

Re: Carbon monoxide poisoning from 3D laser printer may have killed Berkeley couple

#108

Post by droopyEyelids »

Steezy wrote: post #51
pmoriarty wrote: post #34

Makers are often exposed to many toxic compounds, from toxins in salvaged electronics to PCB etching compounds to lead solder and solder fumes. Unfortunately, they rarely have much if any safety training or awareness of the dangers they are exposing themselves to.

As a new hobbyist in the Maker community, are there any resources you'd recommend that covers basic safety that is aimed at Makers? edit: typo

Ventilation, eye protection, hearing protection at all times when appropriate. Rig a fume hood.

Re: Carbon monoxide poisoning from 3D laser printer may have killed Berkeley couple

#109

Post by [deleted] »

JshWright wrote: post #97
pluma wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Emphasis on "just". Yes, obviously getting fresh air is an important step when you suffer from CO poisoning but it's not sufficient. Even the site you linked to mentions you should get additional treatment. Intuitively most people would think that just stopping to breathe CO is sufficient and breathing fresh air would displace it as quickly as with other common gasses (i.e. you may cough for a bit but recover in minu…

3-4 hours is "a bit" when compared to the multiple weeks the GP suggested... You should absolutely seek medical treatment if you suspect you have been exposed to CO. I'm not trying to make light of that. My point is simply that CO is not actually as "clingy" as some in this thread are making it out to be. I am a paramedic. We carry a portable CO meter on our "BLS bag" (the bag that gets brought in on the vast majorit…

[deleted]

Re: Carbon monoxide poisoning from 3D laser printer may have killed Berkeley couple

#110

Post by Kubuxu »

bonniemuffin wrote: post #80
TacticalMalice wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CO or CO2? Both are possible, CO2 poisoning is quite horrible though, whereas CO poisoning may go unnoticed.

Yeah really -- I can't imagine you could die of CO2 poisoning without noticing in time to GTFO. I've sucked a lungful of CO2 and it was awful.

There is a difference between high and low concentrations of CO2 and reactions. In high concentrations you get similar effect to lack of oxygen (as it completely replaces oxygen in the air), in low concentrations it prevents the HbCO2 from unbinding (only 7% of CO2 in air is enough to do that IIRC) and causes silent death. There are stories of miners sitting down for a lunch and never standing up again because of that.
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