Carbon monoxide poisoning from 3D laser printer may have killed Berkeley couple • Hacker News Board

Re: Carbon monoxide poisoning from 3D laser printer may have killed Berkeley couple

#91

Post by andai » Sat, Jan 28, 2017, 8:46 PM UTC

reverend_gonzo wrote: post #54

stcredzero wrote: post #18

CO poisoning is cumulative. It takes a long time for CO to get unstuck from hemoglobin. (About 2 weeks, IIRC.) It could have snuck up on them slowly, then one evening with the cats "napping" they felt particularly tired and thought to themselves, "We must be in hibernation mode from the chilly weather," then they went to sleep then never woke up. CO is odorless. You might get a headache, or you might only feel tired.…

To add to this, here's a really interesting story of someone who thought that his landlord was stalking him, but really he slowly become poisoned by a carbon monoxide leak. https://www.reddit.com/r/bestof/comments/34novp/user_thinks_...

He was leaving himself notes which he later didn't recognize, he thought someone was in the apartment! It was suggestions on reddit tnat made him realize it was CO poisoning.

Re: Carbon monoxide poisoning from 3D laser printer may have killed Berkeley couple

#92

Post by phkahler » Sat, Jan 28, 2017, 8:46 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #18

CO poisoning is cumulative. It takes a long time for CO to get unstuck from hemoglobin. (About 2 weeks, IIRC.) It could have snuck up on them slowly, then one evening with the cats "napping" they felt particularly tired and thought to themselves, "We must be in hibernation mode from the chilly weather," then they went to sleep then never woke up. CO is odorless. You might get a headache, or you might only feel tired.…

>> About 2 weeks, IIRC.

Does the CO actually get out or do the red blood cells die and get replaced?

Re: Carbon monoxide poisoning from 3D laser printer may have killed Berkeley couple

#93

Post by Animats » Sat, Jan 28, 2017, 8:47 PM UTC

danshapiro wrote: post #84

Animats wrote: post #44

"3D laser printer" probably means a Glowforge. Nobody else calls them that. Their documentation says "Lasers normally require some ventilation via a small tube out a nearby window. Our optional Air Filter that sits under Glowforge and ventilates using HEPA filters and charcoal, meaning no outside ventilation is required." That won't do much if you cut something that emits carbon monoxide when heated. That includes so…

I'm the CEO and cofounder of Glowforge - we're so saddened by this tragedy. Our product was not involved, but that doesn't make us feel any better about this loss. If you use a laser, ours or anyone else's, please go back right now and re-read the safety instructions. Accidents like this should never happen. My heart breaks for those affected by this.

OK, it's good to know it wasn't yours. Thanks.

It would be appropriate to put a CO detector in your units before somebody does that with one of yours. That definitely needs to be in the "filtered" units that are supposed to operate with no ventilation.

Re: Carbon monoxide poisoning from 3D laser printer may have killed Berkeley couple

#94

Post by andai » Sat, Jan 28, 2017, 8:50 PM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #48

semi-extrinsic wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Omega is one company I would trust for this myself; they sell for industrial applications, not homes, and have a good reputation when it comes to sensors. A CO monitor will set you back $235. http://www.omega.com/pptst/AQM-103.html

Is there any way to know that an expensive CO detector like this is worth getting for home use, instead of one costing 10x less?

Anecdotal: I've bought cheap versions of things online enough times that I don't want to do it again (just got home from helping a friend install a battery that didn't even fit properly). I've had a few things melt and a couple explode..

I shudder to think that you would risk your life on a device of questionable quality.

Re: Carbon monoxide poisoning from 3D laser printer may have killed Berkeley couple

#95

Post by xjay » Sat, Jan 28, 2017, 8:53 PM UTC

Might as well raise awareness of Radon, and laser printers.

It's a tragedy, and reminded me of Marie Curie (who eventually discovered her research was causing damaging levels of radiation exposure).

Re: Carbon monoxide poisoning from 3D laser printer may have killed Berkeley couple

#96

Post by danieltillett » Sat, Jan 28, 2017, 8:54 PM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #60

Steezy wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a new hobbyist in the Maker community, are there any resources you'd recommend that covers basic safety that is aimed at Makers? edit: typo

I'd start with digging up the material safety data sheets (MSDS)[1] for all the compounds you're working with, and reading over those. I'd also search around for books and papers on electronics safety. It's really amazing just how little electricity is required to stop a human heart, if the conditions are right. The same goes for chemical safety. College level textbooks on these subjects tend to at least give a decen…

The trouble with MSDS is that the lawyers have got to them and they all end saying the same thing (look at the one for salt [1]) and so people become blasé about the really dangerous risks.

When I was an academic I had huge problems with students working with the truely dangerous chemicals in an unsafe manner because they couldn't tell the difference. I had to run little informal classes with my students where I would teach them which chemicals they had to worry about and which were not that dangerous.

1. https://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927593

Re: Carbon monoxide poisoning from 3D laser printer may have killed Berkeley couple

#97

Post by JshWright » Sat, Jan 28, 2017, 8:57 PM UTC

pluma wrote: post #89

JshWright wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can't just go outside to get fresh air since the CO just won't let go. Yes you can... http://www.remsaeducation.com/news/carbon-monoxide-poisoning...

Emphasis on "just". Yes, obviously getting fresh air is an important step when you suffer from CO poisoning but it's not sufficient. Even the site you linked to mentions you should get additional treatment. Intuitively most people would think that just stopping to breathe CO is sufficient and breathing fresh air would displace it as quickly as with other common gasses (i.e. you may cough for a bit but recover in minu…

3-4 hours is "a bit" when compared to the multiple weeks the GP suggested...

You should absolutely seek medical treatment if you suspect you have been exposed to CO. I'm not trying to make light of that. My point is simply that CO is not actually as "clingy" as some in this thread are making it out to be.

I am a paramedic. We carry a portable CO meter on our "BLS bag" (the bag that gets brought in on the vast majority of calls), because more than once a "general illness" call has turned out to be CO poisoning.

Re: Carbon monoxide poisoning from 3D laser printer may have killed Berkeley couple

#98

Post by yuhong » Sat, Jan 28, 2017, 9:03 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #44

"3D laser printer" probably means a Glowforge. Nobody else calls them that. Their documentation says "Lasers normally require some ventilation via a small tube out a nearby window. Our optional Air Filter that sits under Glowforge and ventilates using HEPA filters and charcoal, meaning no outside ventilation is required." That won't do much if you cut something that emits carbon monoxide when heated. That includes so…

I wonder if a catalyst converter would help.

Re: Carbon monoxide poisoning from 3D laser printer may have killed Berkeley couple

#99

Post by Animats » Sat, Jan 28, 2017, 9:05 PM UTC

auxym wrote: post #74

Animats wrote: post #44

"3D laser printer" probably means a Glowforge. Nobody else calls them that. Their documentation says "Lasers normally require some ventilation via a small tube out a nearby window. Our optional Air Filter that sits under Glowforge and ventilates using HEPA filters and charcoal, meaning no outside ventilation is required." That won't do much if you cut something that emits carbon monoxide when heated. That includes so…

Yeah, in my lab we prohibited cutting anything with chlorine, including PVC and polycarbonate. The results are really bad anyways, it melts and burns. I'm curious though, can you get good cutting of polycarbonate using an inert gas shield? That would be interesting.

CNC zone reports that cutting polycarbonate on higher power lasers under nitrogen can be made to work, but it's touchy.[1] The plastic tends to melt rather than cut. Pre-freezing the material is suggested.

[1] http://www.cnczone.com/forums/general-laser-engraving-cuttin...

Re: Carbon monoxide poisoning from 3D laser printer may have killed Berkeley couple

#100

Post by allenrabinovich » Sat, Jan 28, 2017, 9:06 PM UTC

Hi folks. Val and Roger were dear friends, and I am on the ground here, and I'd like to respectfully ask that you refrain from speculation. The press is rushing to print sensational items, and they don't know the actual facts.

I've been talking to the police directly, and nothing is conclusive yet. They don't even have full toxicology reports.

On a personal note, I can tell you that there were two devices in the house, a small 3D printer, and a small laser cutter, that were used for building models and rigs for scientific research. Val was an immaculate engineer, and conformed to all safety rules in operating these machines. To the best of our knowledge, neither of the machines were operating the night they passed away.

Again, please refrain from fear-mongering and speculation. I know it's natural for engineers to attack unsolved problems, but you are not working with correct or full data. Once more data is available, we will write up a complete and truthful statement to try and provide closure on this issue.