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Plan B - Skip College

nytimes.com

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Re: Plan B - Skip College

#21

Post by cianestro »

Every week I see an article like this one. Maybe it's supposed to be some sort of innuendo that someone needs to solve the "education problem." But it's not an education problem and neither are most of the other problems that plague our society. It's a money problem, has been and will always be so. We all silently say to ourselves, "If I can just get that ______ I will be set." But how often does this prove true?

There are too many sort-sighted patches out distracting us from the truth that our depression is our money. How about we see through the symptoms into the disease for once with a few intelligent alternatives to money/points/etc (all patches that provoke distrust in one another and needless hoarding or competition). People love to say moneyless economies would create incentive for irresponsibility but our reality has proven that to be the exact opposite.

Please don't "skip" college, I don't want to see anyone have to serve me my "ice cream" even 4 years from now--there's nothing wrong with automated solutions. More of the same never changes anything but then again, it seems, neither does saying so.

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#22

Post by matwood »

warwick wrote: post #5

I think what bothers me most when I read this sort of article is that it treats all college degrees as equivalent. They talk about average earnings potential and average unemployment rates, but they never break it down. If you get a B.Sc. instead of a B.A., how does that effect your chances? Almost all my friends without some sort of technical degree (Chem, CompSci, Physics, Math, etc.) aren't working anywhere near t…

Where are all these mythical talented engineers working as cashiers and waitresses?! Last time we hired I interviewed tons of people who frankly had zero clue about programming. We finally found a kid fresh out of school who is super smart, but barely takes showers. At least he gets work done though which makes my day easier and that's what counts ;)

At worst a CompSci person should be able to go into government contracting. They are nearly always hiring, mostly require minimum schooling, and the pay is usually pretty good.

There are some fields that usually require more than an undergrad degree to do much with them, but that's isn't anything new. Psychology is a great example, where you have to get an MS or PhD in order to go anywhere with it. If the student didn't realize that till graduation day, well that's their fault.

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#23

Post by warwick »

matwood wrote: post #22
warwick wrote: post #5

I think what bothers me most when I read this sort of article is that it treats all college degrees as equivalent. They talk about average earnings potential and average unemployment rates, but they never break it down. If you get a B.Sc. instead of a B.A., how does that effect your chances? Almost all my friends without some sort of technical degree (Chem, CompSci, Physics, Math, etc.) aren't working anywhere near t…

Where are all these mythical talented engineers working as cashiers and waitresses?! Last time we hired I interviewed tons of people who frankly had zero clue about programming. We finally found a kid fresh out of school who is super smart, but barely takes showers. At least he gets work done though which makes my day easier and that's what counts ;) At worst a CompSci person should be able to go into government cont…

Reread the comment. The folks working outside their field are the ones without technical degrees. Incidentally, the ice cream parlour cashier has a psych degree (undergrad only).

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#24

Post by sliverstorm »

petercooper wrote: post #14

All well and good if it's all about smarts and money, but the social aspects of having to spend four years collaborating and tolerating your peers cannot be underestimated. People who've gone through four years of college are, typically, well-rounded in their general knowledge and social skills, more liberal and more tolerant. Colleges don't just take in kids and output kids with knowledge. They turn kids into a cert…

I appreciate that you said 'a certain type', instead of assuming it was implicitly a better type. (Not that I wouldn't agree with you if you had.)

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#25

Post by matwood »

fleitz wrote: post #3

I've always wondered what the employment / income benefits for a degree are once you account for intelligence. It seems to be that there is a lot of schooling that goes unused.

You're assuming that intelligence somehow leads to employment and income.

I believe intelligence is only one part of the total equation. IMHO, the larger and more substantial part of the equation is discipline and the ability to execute. This is HN, so look at all the startups that people do around here. Are they really that much more intelligent than everyone else on this list? I'm sure they're all smart people, but what they really have above others is the ability to execute. While the average american is watching American Idol they are working on their business idea. While the same american is playing video games or posting on HN ;) they are working their website.

Obviously some level of intelligence is required, but I just don't think it's as important as many people believe it to be.

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#26

Post by matwood »

warwick wrote: post #23
matwood wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are all these mythical talented engineers working as cashiers and waitresses?! Last time we hired I interviewed tons of people who frankly had zero clue about programming. We finally found a kid fresh out of school who is super smart, but barely takes showers. At least he gets work done though which makes my day easier and that's what counts ;) At worst a CompSci person should be able to go into government cont…

Reread the comment. The folks working outside their field are the ones without technical degrees. Incidentally, the ice cream parlour cashier has a psych degree (undergrad only).

Whoops, ignore me. I missed withOUT :) Sorry about that.

Where is that story about how it's impossible to multitask again...

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#27

Post by tokenadult »

jacoblyles wrote: post #4
fleitz wrote: post #3

I've always wondered what the employment / income benefits for a degree are once you account for intelligence. It seems to be that there is a lot of schooling that goes unused.

I think you've pointed out the elephant in the room. In America it is politically incorrect to believe that some people might not have the cognitive capacity to excel in college and in jobs requiring college degrees. Every American is above average. If each citizen is not Bill Gates, it is because they are the victim of circumstance. Other people held them down, the system failed them. The successful must be condemne…

If each citizen is not Bill Gates, it is because they are the victim of circumstance.

He has done some amazing things, and aims to do more, but he did also come from unusual circumstances.

http://philip.greenspun.com/bg/

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#28

Post by natrius »

jacoblyles wrote: post #4
fleitz wrote: post #3

I've always wondered what the employment / income benefits for a degree are once you account for intelligence. It seems to be that there is a lot of schooling that goes unused.

I think you've pointed out the elephant in the room. In America it is politically incorrect to believe that some people might not have the cognitive capacity to excel in college and in jobs requiring college degrees. Every American is above average. If each citizen is not Bill Gates, it is because they are the victim of circumstance. Other people held them down, the system failed them. The successful must be condemne…

> If each citizen is not Bill Gates, it is because they are the victim of circumstance. Other people held them down, the system failed them.

This part of your otherwise insightful comment is a bit ridiculous. Most people's success is determined by how much money their parents had and what schools their parents could afford to send them to. Circumstances have a pretty huge impact, and if our system is intended to minimize the effects of circumstances, it is failing many people.

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#29

Post by tokenadult »

jacoblyles wrote: post #17
wntdaliv wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a second year undergrad at a UC, I've found that the majority of the people who would appear to not have the cognitive capacity to excel in college courses were simply lacking in fundamental learning that they should have learned in high school or even middle school. All of the students I met that had trouble with calculus had trouble because of their poor algebra skills. The same is true of English classes where…

I assure you that different people have different degrees of cognitive ability. What you say has some truth to it. But a deficit in preparation can be atoned for by a high degree of ability. And no amount of experience will carry someone who is simply over his head. That has been my experience anyways. We are not all geniuses though I wish we were.

Better beginning preparation can bring up a whole national average to about the "gifted" level in the United States, in several countries that were formerly poor and backward,

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2009/2009001.pdf

and several aspects of primary curricula in the United States are KNOWN to be suboptimal,

http://www.ams.org/notices/200502/fea-kenschaft.pdf

so there is surely still a lot of room for improvement in the United States.

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#30

Post by hristov »

warwick wrote: post #5

I think what bothers me most when I read this sort of article is that it treats all college degrees as equivalent. They talk about average earnings potential and average unemployment rates, but they never break it down. If you get a B.Sc. instead of a B.A., how does that effect your chances? Almost all my friends without some sort of technical degree (Chem, CompSci, Physics, Math, etc.) aren't working anywhere near t…

Exactly. Also, I think it errs by treating all colleges as equivalent. Since the government subsidises educational loans there are many colleges out there that do not provide much of an education but mostly exist to siphon off those subsidised loans.

I think there are many colleges out there which are just not worth going to. Mind you, I am not an ivy league snob, I am not saying go to a top 50 school or not at all. There are many great schools that are ranked much lower.

But all of those for profit colleges that advertise heavily are mostly a waste of money. If you want to learn something, go to a school that is either public or private but set up as a non-profit and has an established reputation of supporting scholarship and research. Just forget about the ITT techs and universities of phoenix. Community college would be better than those.

I think the government is just too loose with the loans it subsidises.

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