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Plan B - Skip College

nytimes.com

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Re: Plan B - Skip College

#11

Post by metamemetics »

jacoblyles wrote: post #4
fleitz wrote: post #3

I've always wondered what the employment / income benefits for a degree are once you account for intelligence. It seems to be that there is a lot of schooling that goes unused.

I think you've pointed out the elephant in the room. In America it is politically incorrect to believe that some people might not have the cognitive capacity to excel in college and in jobs requiring college degrees. Every American is above average. If each citizen is not Bill Gates, it is because they are the victim of circumstance. Other people held them down, the system failed them. The successful must be condemne…

Actually thats what the article just pointed out, that college does not benefit the unintelligent.

What fleitz seemed to be pointing out is that it is necessary to examine to what degree college actually benefits the intelligent as well.

edit: also, it's funny you used Bill Gates considering he dropped out of college.

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#12

Post by branden »

metamemetics wrote: post #7
Qz wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shouldn't the degree reflect intelligence? If not, wtf is the point?

Rephrased: Do people smart enough to get accepted to college earn the same amount whether they attend or not? Or is actually attending college necessary to earn more because of knowledge imparted in classes?

Or is attending college necessary to earn more because employers hire people with degrees? That's hard to quantify, and you'd have to control for it to get the answer.

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#13

Post by wntdaliv »

jacoblyles wrote: post #4
fleitz wrote: post #3

I've always wondered what the employment / income benefits for a degree are once you account for intelligence. It seems to be that there is a lot of schooling that goes unused.

I think you've pointed out the elephant in the room. In America it is politically incorrect to believe that some people might not have the cognitive capacity to excel in college and in jobs requiring college degrees. Every American is above average. If each citizen is not Bill Gates, it is because they are the victim of circumstance. Other people held them down, the system failed them. The successful must be condemne…

As a second year undergrad at a UC, I've found that the majority of the people who would appear to not have the cognitive capacity to excel in college courses were simply lacking in fundamental learning that they should have learned in high school or even middle school. All of the students I met that had trouble with calculus had trouble because of their poor algebra skills. The same is true of English classes where students had poor grammar and generally no concept of how to write a structured thesis-driven argument. Even in my upper div algorithms course, the only people who are doing poorly are the ones who did not pay attention in earlier cs classes where we already learned half of this stuff!

Clearly some people are truly incapable of excelling at these things, but I don't think that's the majority and I feel that if we could teach people better in k-12 then they would most definitely excel at higher learning schools where k-12 knowledge is expected.

But then again I'm young, so what do I know?

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#14

Post by petercooper »

All well and good if it's all about smarts and money, but the social aspects of having to spend four years collaborating and tolerating your peers cannot be underestimated. People who've gone through four years of college are, typically, well-rounded in their general knowledge and social skills, more liberal and more tolerant.

Colleges don't just take in kids and output kids with knowledge. They turn kids into a certain type of adult.

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#15

Post by samatman »

Especially amusing: of the 10 fastest growing job categories, two require college degrees. One is accounting; the other is postsecondary education.

In other words, the manufacture of college degrees.

This is powerful support that the age of the ubiquitous bachelor's degree may soon be over.

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#16

Post by metamemetics »

branden wrote: post #12
metamemetics wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rephrased: Do people smart enough to get accepted to college earn the same amount whether they attend or not? Or is actually attending college necessary to earn more because of knowledge imparted in classes?

Or is attending college necessary to earn more because employers hire people with degrees? That's hard to quantify, and you'd have to control for it to get the answer.

Agreed. Conducting a meaningful longitudinal study with large enough group to control for confounds would be extremely hard.

My personal view is of college as an institution where what you are really learning is how to function within institutions. Institutional training is therefore positive if you wish to continue joining institutions (large firms, academia, etc.) but otherwise irrelevant.

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#17

Post by jacoblyles »

wntdaliv wrote: post #13
jacoblyles wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you've pointed out the elephant in the room. In America it is politically incorrect to believe that some people might not have the cognitive capacity to excel in college and in jobs requiring college degrees. Every American is above average. If each citizen is not Bill Gates, it is because they are the victim of circumstance. Other people held them down, the system failed them. The successful must be condemne…

As a second year undergrad at a UC, I've found that the majority of the people who would appear to not have the cognitive capacity to excel in college courses were simply lacking in fundamental learning that they should have learned in high school or even middle school. All of the students I met that had trouble with calculus had trouble because of their poor algebra skills. The same is true of English classes where…

I assure you that different people have different degrees of cognitive ability. What you say has some truth to it. But a deficit in preparation can be atoned for by a high degree of ability. And no amount of experience will carry someone who is simply over his head.

That has been my experience anyways. We are not all geniuses though I wish we were.

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#18

Post by timr »

samatman wrote: post #15

Especially amusing: of the 10 fastest growing job categories, two require college degrees. One is accounting; the other is postsecondary education. In other words, the manufacture of college degrees. This is powerful support that the age of the ubiquitous bachelor's degree may soon be over.

"This is powerful support that the age of the ubiquitous bachelor's degree may soon be over."

It's incorrect to interpret this article as evidence for an anti-intellectual world-view. Nothing in the article suggests that bachelor's degrees will be unimportant in the future, particularly for the best jobs. The article also points out (correctly) that people without college degrees make less on average, and have less reliable employment.

If anything, this is a disturbing piece of evidence that jobs requiring skilled labor are becoming less prevalent. However interesting the trend may be, I don't think it's a trend to celebrate. I'd rather live in a world where college education is in demand, than one where we're sending kids to vocational school because there's no point in trying to do better.

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#19

Post by jacoblyles »

whakojacko wrote: post #8
jacoblyles wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you've pointed out the elephant in the room. In America it is politically incorrect to believe that some people might not have the cognitive capacity to excel in college and in jobs requiring college degrees. Every American is above average. If each citizen is not Bill Gates, it is because they are the victim of circumstance. Other people held them down, the system failed them. The successful must be condemne…

Exactly. The whole "anyone can do anything" culture in America has its benefits, but also its costs. I personally think a good middle ground is to be sending far more students to community colleges. This doesnt immediately comdemn lower-level jobs to the truly determined (as they can transfer out), but it is far more affordable than a 4-year degree without much in the way of a loss of benefits for the students. On th…

A recent Econ Talk podcast reviewing a sociologist's study of low-wage workers showed that technical degrees and certificates can make a huge difference in a person's earning potential:

http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2010/03/newman_on_low-w.htm...

Though "community college" has a certain stigma among the intellectual classes that debate and shape public policy, these programs make a strong positive impact in people's lives.

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#20

Post by jacoblyles »

samatman wrote: post #15

Especially amusing: of the 10 fastest growing job categories, two require college degrees. One is accounting; the other is postsecondary education. In other words, the manufacture of college degrees. This is powerful support that the age of the ubiquitous bachelor's degree may soon be over.

I wouldn't bet on it. The government loves to subsidize things in inverse proportion to their usefulness.
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