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What Chinese students go through to get into top American universities (2016)

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Re: What Chinese students go through to get into top American universities (2016)

#91
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still resent the colleges which used "Why do you want to come to Blah University in particular?" as an admissions prompt. For a graduate program, fine. For an undergraduate program? There are a handful of acceptable cases (Stanford makes you apply to a major), but mostly it's either "it's a good school that I hope I can get in to" or "it's a mediocre school and I need a safety for when Harvard shoots me down". Thes…

Essays for transfering are very similar: "Why do you want to come here / why did you leave your last situation?" Surely they'd like you to write about environment or purpose, but like with a first job as a kid, I think "the other place sucked / the classes weren't any good there" should suffice.

Actually I think for transferring the "why us" essay is fine, mainly because you're transferring for some specific reason and the "why us" essay just allows you to reflect on that reason and whether the new university will truly be any better than the one you're switching out of.

Re: What Chinese students go through to get into top American universities (2016)

#92
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Essays for transfering are very similar: "Why do you want to come here / why did you leave your last situation?" Surely they'd like you to write about environment or purpose, but like with a first job as a kid, I think "the other place sucked / the classes weren't any good there" should suffice.

Actually I think for transferring the "why us" essay is fine, mainly because you're transferring for some specific reason and the "why us" essay just allows you to reflect on that reason and whether the new university will truly be any better than the one you're switching out of.

Consider the opportunity cost involved in writing such an essay: The time you invest to write such an essay cannot be invested into much more important things.

Re: What Chinese students go through to get into top American universities (2016)

#93
Christ almighty, I wish I could share the actual source, but I can't find it.

There was a study a decade(?) ago that took a look at 'Top Schools' and instead of looking at the best students, they took a look at the worst students. They took out the legacy children, the athletes, etc, and only looked at the kids that got in on their 'merits'. Typically, the schools will have a ranking system that combines GPA, ACT, SAT, etc. The researchers (out of Michigan, maybe?) then looked at the bottom people in that ranking order that accepted into the schools.

I read the popular press article about it (Wired?) where they focused on a kid from Arizona that got into Stanford. He was super passionate about this park near his house that he hiked in. His grades and whatnot were average at best. When budget cuts closed the park, the guy fundraised and solicited the state house until the park re-opened. He applied to Stanford on a lark, and got in mostly based on the essay about the park closure.

The researchers concluded that the 'bottom' kids that got into super elite schools were are very unique, but similar in one way: They were super passionate about one specific thing. These kids were really spiky, not well-rounded. Effectively, Stanford et al. were actually asking the kids to come to their schools. These kids really didn't need the schools to begin with, they were going to continue doing their thing anyways. But those schools wanted those kids because of that passion.

So maybe then we should be trying to go for that approach when it comes to education for our children. Maybe we should be trying to make them super passionate about one specific thing and not trying to be well rounded; a 'T' shaped mind where they have a little bit of know-how about a lot of stuff and a lot of know-how about one thing instead of a '---' shaped mind where they know a little bit about a whole ton of things.

If anyone knows where the original paper is, PLEASE link it!

Re: What Chinese students go through to get into top American universities (2016)

#94
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a real, authentic interest in my chosen degree subject. I really, genuinely wanted to know all about it. I didn't ever want a job (and I still don't want one). I really, authentically wanted to be good at it for no other purpose than the pleasure of being able to fluidly understand it and play with it.

You are so fake.

My chosen subject was physics. It's quite common to find that physics undergrads actually want to know physics; that it's not simply a planned stepping stone to some future job. I followed up with a masters in it, and several years later did another masters, in maths, at my own expense in evenings and weekends, with the same motivation; I had been doing some mathematics, and was annoyed at how bad I was at it, and decided a masters in maths would sharpen that right up.

People like me exist. We are real. We exist in the blind spots of your world, taking genuine interest in things. Learning for no other reason than that we simply want to know more. To understand more. To have a fluidity with more knowledge, more understanding. You just haven't noticed. We don't have a manifesto or a webpage because we've got more interesting things to do.

Re: What Chinese students go through to get into top American universities (2016)

#95
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a real, authentic interest in my chosen degree subject. I really, genuinely wanted to know all about it. I didn't ever want a job (and I still don't want one). I really, authentically wanted to be good at it for no other purpose than the pleasure of being able to fluidly understand it and play with it.

You must be either rich or have a very frugal, possibly isolated lifestyle. Most people don't fit either of those categories.

I didn't say I don't have a job. I said I don't want one. It turns out that I don't want to be living rough on the streets to a greater degree than I don't want a job.

Re: What Chinese students go through to get into top American universities (2016)

#96
post #87
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't penalize Asians or half-Asians at all. Be an interesting person, and your likelihood of getting into a given school increases dramatically, and the odds of getting into at least one of a few that your friend applies to approaches 100%. Feel free to ask more about what "interesting" means.

> Be an interesting person, and your likelihood of getting into a given school increases dramatically > [...] > Feel free to ask more about what "interesting" means. For reasons that are of no relevance here (for the simple reason that this would be rather off topic) I think I know what "interesting person" means here. Perhaps in the future I will be sitting in a panel and be obligated to apply these criteria. But de…

I think you bring up several good points. In summary, it seems like you are saying that while elite schools do look for "interesting" people, they put parameters on the scope of interesting (in terms of admissions) based on their preference. I agree with this, and I personally believe that this is their right (and perhaps obligation), but I think the parameters are not as narrow as you seem to believe based on your examples. Furthermore, I think that this is a relatively minor issue since these are statistically edge cases or corner cases (most of which actually have a favorable disposition towards the applicant).

> Aaron Swartz

Admissions committees LOVE applicants like Aaron Swartz. Note that he enrolled at Stanford despite dropping out of school after 9th grade or so. He also had a lot of support from powerful people both at MIT and Harvard. He is an Ivy dream applicant.

That said, my understanding of the biggest problem that Aaron had was that: 1) he was breaking the law, 2) he was caught, told he was breaking the law, and was asked not to do it again, and 3) he did it again. This is why MIT went after him and why some of his support dried up (or at least became more subtle).

Large institutions with very public profiles have a right to draw the line at illegal activities that happen under their names or on their property -- some would say an obligation. On a personal level, I have found that many places are ok with gray area stuff, but blatantly illegal activity even after being warned is typically a no-go.

> vocal polarized opinions

I think this group is largely sought after. It's tough to say without specific examples. Let me try a few.

First, I have heard that one of the Beastie Boys (Mike D?) was accepted to Harvard in the 90s. The Beasties were extremely politically incorrect in a very PC time. This acceptance would not surprise me.

Second (a made up example), let's say a person of Sudanese descent supported female circumcision and wanted to advocate for this position. Depending on how their stance was presented, I think that this person could get in. If they said something like "this practice is important to me for xyz reasons, and i would like to go to [elite school] to help me learn about [specific topics] that will help me communicate my message in a more compelling manner", then that's probably a strong application. If they say something like "This practice is important to me, and I think all people in my culture should be forced to do it" is probably not a strong application. So there is a range of possible outcomes even on controversial topics. I think the key points are that the applicant needs to be curious about learning (esp. something that the specific school can help with), and the attitudes should probably be based on something of perceived high moral ground (law, human rights, etc.) rather than an individual's personal beliefs that may come across as being arbitrary. It can be a fine line.

A third (real) example is an applicant to a HYPS grad school who was accepted against all odds and violated most of the "rules" that people think exist.

The person in question was a minority rights activist -- the stuff they did was super cool. That said, this person had bad grades and unbelievably bad standardized test scores, neither of which were explained (e.g., illness, personal protest, etc.). The recommendations all said that the person worked on cool stuff, but was decidedly not academically oriented. They also said that the applicant struggled to write clearly, and this was easy to confirm based on application essays that were tough to read and full of technical errors and questionable decisions on style (but were still fascinating once they were understood).

This person was accepted and offered the best minority scholarship we had -- full tuition and a very healthy stipend. The applicant ended up not matriculating.

I give this last story as an example of how far some admission committees will go to admit interesting people. Granted, had this person been white or Asian, the rules probably could not have been bent this far. That said, I assure you that the "limits" can actually be quite loose even for these groups... if they are interesting enough.

> multiple failures

Yeah, this might be a group that falls through the cracks, but I would also consider this group to collectively be a corner case -- there just aren't that many of them. That said, I would suggest that if someone truly tries and fails multiple times in high school, then maybe their process has major flaws (e.g., too ambitious, poorly structured, etc.), and this might actually signal a hard limit on their ability to get things done.

Even then, it wouldn't be a terrible application to reflect on these failures and point out that the target school has one or more things that might help address these points of failure.

I'm open to other ideas or examples in this area.

SUMMARY

I certainly hope that you get to sit on an admissions committee one day. I think that you will find that most applicants are not interesting and/or not qualified and are relatively easy to reject. The interesting candidates are easy to spot and typically are easy to accept. They toughest part is filling in the bottom 30% or so of the class -- there will be no truly good options.

Re: What Chinese students go through to get into top American universities (2016)

#97
post #93

Christ almighty, I wish I could share the actual source, but I can't find it. There was a study a decade(?) ago that took a look at 'Top Schools' and instead of looking at the best students, they took a look at the worst students. They took out the legacy children, the athletes, etc, and only looked at the kids that got in on their 'merits'. Typically, the schools will have a ranking system that combines GPA, ACT, SA…

Only because there exist a few kids who are very passionate about a specific thing and thus admitted to a top school this does not imply, that the "typical" kid with this property will be admitted.

I would rather conjecture that many well-rounded pupils will get admitted plus a few (but not more) "special characters". Thus it would be a bad strategy if you want to go to Stanford to become passionate in only one thing.

Re: What Chinese students go through to get into top American universities (2016)

#98
post #4

Cynically, I imagine it's a similar process to what many American students go through to get into top American universities. Step 1: Win the sperm lottery Step 2: Get Daddy or Mommy to write a big-ass check to build some building on campus. Step 3: Don't screw up completely. Step 4: Profit!

Username checks out.

People just love the nuclear down-vote-everything-you've-said-that-they-can option these days.

Re: What Chinese students go through to get into top American universities (2016)

#99
post #88
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If becoming a doctor or lawyer is the peak what you want for some of the very best students in the country, then you're aiming way too low. Some answers of people I actually know were: - conduct bleeding edge genetics research - develop bespoke computer-based learning tools for schools (ones that were backed by amazing data and met the schools' sometimes overly specific legal requirements) - influence directly and in…

> Most people that age simply don't think big enough. I think really big, I believe. The problem is: I am not the kind of charismatic personality that is able to convince fellows to participate (friends would rather describe me as "brilliant scientist who tends to polarizes (in both positive and negative sense of the word) people"); so I am rather completely on my own - and the day only has 24 hours. :-( EDIT: And wh…

- Charisma is a useful thing. It can be developed.

- If you haven't already, read more about Aaron Swartz. He was good or became good at persuasion.

- If you are "on your own", then you might just be wrong-minded or maybe just a poor communicator. The scope of what is possible on a figurative island is really small (in most fields) compared to what can be done by a group/team. Persuasion, communication, and leadership are high value-add skills. It might be prudent to learn about them and practice them.

- Ambitious projects are fine. Needing to develop skills is fine. Focus on taking small steps that you can actually take and succeed in to show that you are moving in an interesting direction. Read the PG essay "startup = growth, specifically the section on compass. He talks about hill climbing and local maxima in an interesting way. Work your way up the hill of good ideas gradually -- don't try to take a helicopter to the summit.

- I don't know what space you're working in, but there are almost always small neglected spaces in the sciences that will welcome a young no-name to do meaningful gruntwork that no grant-writing professional scientist can afford to do. Do this work, embrace it, and publish it. You will be loved.

Re: What Chinese students go through to get into top American universities (2016)

#100
post #97
post #93

Christ almighty, I wish I could share the actual source, but I can't find it. There was a study a decade(?) ago that took a look at 'Top Schools' and instead of looking at the best students, they took a look at the worst students. They took out the legacy children, the athletes, etc, and only looked at the kids that got in on their 'merits'. Typically, the schools will have a ranking system that combines GPA, ACT, SA…

Only because there exist a few kids who are very passionate about a specific thing and thus admitted to a top school this does not imply, that the "typical" kid with this property will be admitted. I would rather conjecture that many well-rounded pupils will get admitted plus a few (but not more) "special characters". Thus it would be a bad strategy if you want to go to Stanford to become passionate in only one thing…

From the research, what I took away was that you should just 'be awesome' at whatever you want to be 'awesome' at, work on those things, and not really care who 'wants' you. Like, all those students that did get in would have still gone and done the things that they wanted to do. They were that passionate. That, I think, is the 'better life' path. And since the original article that stated this HN thread was focused on people that are trying to have a better life, I think it has a lot to say. Instead of trying to kill your personality and passion and trying to be yet another perfect little gingerbread-man so you have a chance at the slot-machine that is college admissions, encourage your passions and grit and personality and live a life you want to live, have that better life now and do what you want to be doing. The 'typical' kid should go be passionate and love something and not give a damn about getting into Stanford. How to find that passion or that thing? I have no idea and am still searching myself. But I'd think that path of searching is a lot better than being yet another perfect applicant.
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