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What Chinese students go through to get into top American universities (2016)

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Re: What Chinese students go through to get into top American universities (2016)

#71

Post by Bartweiss »

csa wrote: post #55
Bartweiss wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still resent the colleges which used "Why do you want to come to Blah University in particular?" as an admissions prompt. For a graduate program, fine. For an undergraduate program? There are a handful of acceptable cases (Stanford makes you apply to a major), but mostly it's either "it's a good school that I hope I can get in to" or "it's a mediocre school and I need a safety for when Harvard shoots me down". Thes…

I personally find these types of questions easy to answer well. If you sit on admissions committees, this question is often an easy litmus test to see if the candidate really appreciates what the school (Harvard, safety, other) has to offer. For some, the answer is something specific like being a certain major for a certain reason (e.g., career path). For others, the answer is simply along the lines of "I want to exp…

> I personally find these types of questions easy to answer well.

In some sense, this is my actual complaint. I'm good at answering this question, but my ability to answer it wasn't actually a representation of my interest in a given school. All it took was finding something fairly impressive and unique about a school and talking about it with a mindset of "this is more appealing to me than the unique perks of other schools". Doing that was pretty easy even without actually caring about the school, so it felt more like a test of my creative writing than an expression of interest.

I suppose there were a few places that got closer to honest signals from me - they weren't the top of my list. Those were the ones that probably had best-in-class offerings, but didn't have any truly applicable to me, so my honest viewpoint was "if I don't get into X or Y, you have the third-best of this thing I want". For any top-tier place, though, I think I could have been convincing even with no intention at all of attending.

As for the UPenn essay, that one in particular felt more like fluffing than creative writing. I'd have to try to and dig up the specific prompt, but the distinction was basically that it didn't say "Why are we right for you?" but instead "Why are we objectively the best for anyone?"

Re: What Chinese students go through to get into top American universities (2016)

#72

Post by Mieaou »

EliRivers wrote: post #18
munin wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and no authentic detectable motivation They're 18. What do you want? What authentic motivation did you have when you were 18?

I had a real, authentic interest in my chosen degree subject. I really, genuinely wanted to know all about it. I didn't ever want a job (and I still don't want one). I really, authentically wanted to be good at it for no other purpose than the pleasure of being able to fluidly understand it and play with it.

You are so fake.

Re: What Chinese students go through to get into top American universities (2016)

#73

Post by zumu »

titomc wrote: post #20

Part deux: What Asian students go through once they get their degrees from American Universities. They go down the rabbit hole of America's broken immigration system, starting with OPT visa, then H1B (read lottery luck, not based on skills) & then the country based quota for green card currently 7 to 9 years for EB2 categories for India & China. Did I forgot to mention the exorbitant out of state tuition fees and the…

> Did I forgot to mention the exorbitant out of state tuition fees and the loans they took for it in their home country ?

I had a lot of close Chinese(PRC) friends in college, and most of them were extremely rich. I know it's anecdotal, but I find it hard to believe a lot of Chinese exchange students are going deep into debt to afford US schools. From what they describe, the student visa interview process favors financially sound students.

That being said, what you've said about the visa system rings painfully true.

Re: What Chinese students go through to get into top American universities (2016)

#74

Post by csa »

Bartweiss wrote: post #71
csa wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally find these types of questions easy to answer well. If you sit on admissions committees, this question is often an easy litmus test to see if the candidate really appreciates what the school (Harvard, safety, other) has to offer. For some, the answer is something specific like being a certain major for a certain reason (e.g., career path). For others, the answer is simply along the lines of "I want to exp…

> I personally find these types of questions easy to answer well. In some sense, this is my actual complaint. I'm good at answering this question, but my ability to answer it wasn't actually a representation of my interest in a given school. All it took was finding something fairly impressive and unique about a school and talking about it with a mindset of "this is more appealing to me than the unique perks of other…

> Why are we objectively the best for anyone?

Gah... I hope that has never been an actual question. That's terrible.

From http://www.admissions.upenn.edu/apply/whatpennlooksfor/essay...

The current questions on the common app are:

Common Application Essay Prompts for 2016 - 2017 (250-650 words)

1. Some students have a background, identity, interest, or talent that is so meaningful they believe their application would be incomplete without it. If this sounds like you, then please share your story.

2. The lessons we take from failure can be fundamental to later success. Recount an incident or time when you experienced failure. How did it affect you, and what did you learn from the experience?

3. Reflect on a time when you challenged a belief or idea. What prompted you to act? Would you make the same decision again?

4. Describe a problem you've solved or a problem you'd like to solve. It can be an intellectual challenge, a research query, an ethical dilemma-anything that is of personal importance, no matter the scale. Explain its significance to you and what steps you took or could be taken to identify a solution.

5. Discuss an accomplishment or event, formal or informal, that marked your transition from childhood to adulthood within your culture, community, or family.

And the Penn-specific question is:

How will you explore your intellectual and academic interests at the University of Pennsylvania? Please answer this question given the specific undergraduate school to which you are applying. (400-650 words) *For students applying to the coordinated dual-degree programs, please answer this question in regards to your single-degree school choice. Interest in coordinated dual-degree programs will be addressed through those program-specific essays.

Have they changed since you last saw them? These all seem reasonable.

Re: What Chinese students go through to get into top American universities (2016)

#75

Post by crispyambulance »

School-Cotton wrote: post #19
crispyambulance wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Admissions try to get a well-rounded student body rather than many well-rounded students but the Asian-American "tiger-mom" phenomena is not a joke for elite college admissions officers. They really do see large numbers of what are known (in derogatory terms) as Asian-clones: 4.0 GPA, violin or piano skills, and no authentic detectable motivation other than getting high grades for the purpose of becoming a doctor or…

So? If the 1000 best candidates are Asian then you should admit the 1000 Asians. I can see giving extra help to historically marginalized races at the expense of whites, but why ding Asians? They weren't responsible for racism in the US. They weren't the ones stealing resources from other people. Do correct me if I'm wrong but your post seems to amount to "a lot of Asians work hard and are smart, so let's have a quot…

One thing that no one seems to talk about is how to actually determine "best" candidates.

Admissions officers at the most elite universities absolutely do take subjective factors into consideration. If they did not, they would end up with a lottery system choosing randomly from a pool "objectively perfect" candidates.

Re: What Chinese students go through to get into top American universities (2016)

#76

Post by kyukyukyufan »

cik2e wrote: post #51

My statistics graduate program was about 2/3 Chinese with very poor English skills. This lead to complete self-segregation and a horrible TA experience for undergrads they were assigned to. To boot, cheating in this group was rampant.

True. I can relate.

Re: What Chinese students go through to get into top American universities (2016)

#77

Post by kyukyukyufan »

crispyambulance wrote: post #10
kyleschiller wrote: post #2

Chinese students are products of an educational system that, for all of its high achievers, is built to suppress intellectual curiosity, creativity and individuality – the very qualities that American admissions officers value most. Let's not pretend Chinese students are turned away because they lack individuality. The fairly well documented[0][1][2] truth here is that American universities are using qualities like "…

Admissions try to get a well-rounded student body rather than many well-rounded students but the Asian-American "tiger-mom" phenomena is not a joke for elite college admissions officers. They really do see large numbers of what are known (in derogatory terms) as Asian-clones: 4.0 GPA, violin or piano skills, and no authentic detectable motivation other than getting high grades for the purpose of becoming a doctor or…

4.0GPA, violin/piano, wanting to become doctor/lawyer...aren't these good enough for you??? High GPA means they're diligent, focused, violin/piano implied artistic talent, wanting to become doctor/lawyer suggests drive and ambition. What else do you want from them??? What else do you want??? Not many American students match up I'm afraid to say.

Re: What Chinese students go through to get into top American universities (2016)

#78

Post by nraynaud »

defen wrote: post #38
dominotw wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> being heckled or killed in the streets huh? >casual border crossing racism by the CBP. I had an "immigration office" tell me "you will be kicked out like dogs if these documents don't verify". My dad swore off visiting me in America due to his similar experience, I don't blame him. What decent person would put up with this, why do they do this?

>> being heckled or killed in the streets > huh? There were a couple (at least 2, maybe 3) of high-profile murders of Chinese grad students at UCLA within the past couple of years, which is my guess about what OP is referring to. The victims were targeted for their perceived wealth and/or foreignness.

and one at ASU last year.

Re: What Chinese students go through to get into top American universities (2016)

#79

Post by csa »

kyukyukyufan wrote: post #77
crispyambulance wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Admissions try to get a well-rounded student body rather than many well-rounded students but the Asian-American "tiger-mom" phenomena is not a joke for elite college admissions officers. They really do see large numbers of what are known (in derogatory terms) as Asian-clones: 4.0 GPA, violin or piano skills, and no authentic detectable motivation other than getting high grades for the purpose of becoming a doctor or…

4.0GPA, violin/piano, wanting to become doctor/lawyer...aren't these good enough for you??? High GPA means they're diligent, focused, violin/piano implied artistic talent, wanting to become doctor/lawyer suggests drive and ambition. What else do you want from them??? What else do you want??? Not many American students match up I'm afraid to say.

If becoming a doctor or lawyer is the peak what you want for some of the very best students in the country, then you're aiming way too low.

Some answers of people I actually know were:

- conduct bleeding edge genetics research

- develop bespoke computer-based learning tools for schools (ones that were backed by amazing data and met the schools' sometimes overly specific legal requirements)

- influence directly and indirectly policy and laws related to the Internet (e.g, as a consultant to lawmakers, a professional witness, etc.)

While I realize that these examples are perhaps not the norm, it is not uncommon to move the needle in some field in some way for a high school or college student. Most people that age simply don't think big enough.

Even if applicants don't demonstrate these characteristics in their application, it's usually enough to show that they have some potential and/or desire to do these sorts of things.

Re: What Chinese students go through to get into top American universities (2016)

#80

Post by crispyambulance »

kyukyukyufan wrote: post #77
crispyambulance wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Admissions try to get a well-rounded student body rather than many well-rounded students but the Asian-American "tiger-mom" phenomena is not a joke for elite college admissions officers. They really do see large numbers of what are known (in derogatory terms) as Asian-clones: 4.0 GPA, violin or piano skills, and no authentic detectable motivation other than getting high grades for the purpose of becoming a doctor or…

4.0GPA, violin/piano, wanting to become doctor/lawyer...aren't these good enough for you??? High GPA means they're diligent, focused, violin/piano implied artistic talent, wanting to become doctor/lawyer suggests drive and ambition. What else do you want from them??? What else do you want??? Not many American students match up I'm afraid to say.

I don't want anything. I just happen to know an admissions officer at an elite university. The dire tone of your question "What else do you want from them???" really needs to be put into perspective. If you want to get upset about unfairness, look first at the admission of children of alumni and big money donors, look at promising students from disadvantaged situations losing out to students that went to "feeder-schools" where their parents paid 20K+/year since first grade for tuition.

College admissions is more complicated than a GPA and a few checkboxes at ultra-competitive schools.

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