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Stanford historian uncovers a grim correlation between violence and inequality

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Re: Stanford historian uncovers a grim correlation between violence and inequality

#81
post #5

> It is almost universally true that violence has been necessary to ensure the redistribution of wealth at any point in time Strictly speaking, you don't need to redistribute wealth to lower inequality. Destroying wealth is sufficient. Violence and war is pretty good at that.

War does not seem to destroy wealth, but redistribute it?

You have to consider wealth over a historical time frame, and how it has changed, to understand why people think war might be a mean towards wealth and how that's changed over time.

Wealth used to be food, livestock, people (because they can make food and manage livestock), and things generally coveted by all, like jewelry. It was easy to imagine how going to war might increase one's wealth; you simply take their food, livestock, jewelry, and enslave their people. You have to whack their warrior class to do it, but beyond that, conquest was a pretty good deal.

Nowadays, actual physical conquest is not that useful for wealth acquisition. Bombing a skyscraper does not give you a skyscraper; it gives you an enormous mess to clean up. Too much modern wealth is in people's heads, or immobile infrastructure, or even just embedded in the ambient relationships between companies and people. A lot of that wealth is so fragile that it can be destroyed by a bad tax policy or poorly-conceived regulation, to say nothing of being literally bombed.

Modern wars are still about wealth, of course... it's just a lot more subtle than it used to be, and no longer has much to do with redistribution. Now it's about suppressing a rival, or enforcing your economic will on another country (like what appears to be our current war in the middle east because we wanted a pipeline to go here instead of there, which has since spiraled out of control), but to a large degree even these actions are the exceptions. A lot of what used to be armed conflict now happens in treaty negotiations and diplomacy, threats of embargo and threats of tariff, negotiations in the UN, stuff like that.

So it depends on your point of view. The really old ideas of war, that involve actually violence, is generally wealth destructive. If a war is going to stimulate an economy, it's going to be a subtle sort of economic stimulus from producing real goods and providing an impetus to reorganize the economy, not because of the spoils of war, which are all but useless in the modern era. But if you look at war in the broader sense, it has been almost entirely about redistribution, albeit mostly of future wealth (since current wealth is generally too expensive to move around). For instance, you don't really understand modern international climate negotiations if you think it is truly just about "climate"; it may be about that, but it is also a battle on the redistributive battleground.

Re: Stanford historian uncovers a grim correlation between violence and inequality

#82
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>at least 48% of the population is strongly against Where did you get that number from? Hillary Clinton got 65.8 Million votes. That represents 20.6% of the United states population. >That group often starts to look for alternative ways to flex its majority power. See above. They were the majority of voters but they defintely don't represent the majority of the US.

The largest voting blocks that have low turnout would make that gap larger, not smaller. Also, in urban areas where most of these protests are happening the gaps were enormous. In Washington, DC Donald Trump won 4% of the vote. Is it not surprising those people feel a bit underrepresented right now and might turn to alternative means of flexing their massive majority in the areas they specifically live?

>The largest voting blocks that have low turnout would make that gap larger, not smaller. Also, in urban areas where most of these protests are happening the gaps were enormous.

There is no proof of that. "If this person who decided not to vote were a person who decided to vote then they would vote in a similar manner to the other people who decided to vote" is stupid reasoning because that person decided not to vote.

>In Washington, DC Donald Trump won 4% of the vote.

I am shocked, shocked! A city filled with people who's lives revolve around a big federal government voted for the most establishment candidate in history.

>their massive majority in the areas they specifically live

In D.C., Hillary got 282k votes. The population is 659k. That's not even half of the population. Cool it with the 'massive majority' crap.

The US operates on an election system reflecting the house and senate. This should be basic knowledge for most American citizens. Throwing fits because it didn't go your way is pretty childish since it's exactly how the electoral college works.

Re: Stanford historian uncovers a grim correlation between violence and inequality

#83

I love reading the comments on stories like this and consider these comments to be a bellwether as to the current state of inequality in our society. Unfortunately I tend to consider myself one who exists on the lower part of the wealth distribution logarithm within the western world, globally it's a different story. Just as anyone tweeting on their smart phone or tablet claiming to be part of the 99% might want to r…

Maybe not - globally, the 1% own just over half of everything. The 99% includes almost everybody everywhere. Even working-class Americans.

Re: Stanford historian uncovers a grim correlation between violence and inequality

#84
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The war is not meant to be won. It is meant to be continuous. The essential act of modern warfare is the destruction of the produce of human labour. A hierarchical society is only possible on the basis of poverty and ignorance. In principle, the war effort is always planned to keep society on the brink of starvation. The war is waged by the ruling group against its own subjects, and its object is not victory over Eu…

Yeah, but despite the provenance of the quote, it's very hard to square with how the real world has evolved since Orwell wrote that can make a stronger case for the idea that a government pretty much has to keep its population a certain degree of comfortable or it's going to get overthrown than I can for them deliberately keeping them in poverty. The other problem with it is that the elite of a given culture draw the…

>The other problem with it is that the elite of a given culture draw their eliteness from the wealth of the culture itself. The elite of the US and the EU draw their outsized influence from the fact that they are the elite of a wealthy, powerful culture.

The marketplace is global, and wealth is easily siphoned off from other cultures and peoples across the world whom the elite are likely to never interact with otherwise. Cultures do not exist economically independent of others. Where do you think empires get their wealth from?

>If they set about making their cultures deliberately poorer, they are cutting their own influence off by destroying the things they're being the elite of.

This assumes the elite are idealistically patriotic rather than self-interested. On the contrary, they are increasing their margin of power over their subjects by taking their wealth and increasing their debts, and can easily move across to other cultures, bringing their wealth with them, if need be.

Re: Stanford historian uncovers a grim correlation between violence and inequality

#85

I love reading the comments on stories like this and consider these comments to be a bellwether as to the current state of inequality in our society. Unfortunately I tend to consider myself one who exists on the lower part of the wealth distribution logarithm within the western world, globally it's a different story. Just as anyone tweeting on their smart phone or tablet claiming to be part of the 99% might want to r…

I agree and am pretty sure that at least some of the islamists are people that feel left behind by the west, maybe would like to have a similar live but grow to hate them because they just can't have it and use the religion find likeminded people. And i say that without any elitism. It is similar to trying to understand where all the Trump votes come from when you are more liberal.

Re: Stanford historian uncovers a grim correlation between violence and inequality

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is really interesting, especially as how it has played out in recent years - right up to the last few months - in the UK. I used to know a guy who worked for a trade union who was bemoaning its demise. In 1997 when Labour came to power in the UK for the first time in nearly 20 years, they strengthened employment laws so well, the need for trade union was perceived as lesser by much of the membership. Thi…

Asserting that Brexit voting is based on immigration dismisses a whole swathe of arguments in favour of an exit from the EU. I certainly didn't consider immigration policy as a reason for my exit vote.

+1 on explaing why would you consider it favorable to be outside of the EU, assuming you don't want to keep free access to the EU common market ala norway.

Re: Stanford historian uncovers a grim correlation between violence and inequality

#87

In the past few weeks the idea of 'legitimatizing violence' has been circulating heavily. On my Facebook feed most of it has centered on the idea that it is "okay" to punch neo-nazis now. The people saying this are people I'd never expect to. Twitter is similar. I wish I had stats on whether the legitimatization meme is really rising. To me, it looks like the fake news meme. Suddenly it's everywhere.

Culturally, Americans have chosen "Nazis" and zombies as default groups on which we can assert violence without questioning our moral values or their expression. While Richard Spencer is even saying in that clip that he isn't a Neo Nazi (before getting punched) - a great deal of the American population don't draw the lines as finely as he might. He's certainly said some things that put him in that world of thought. I…

I'm also uncomfortable with violence but I don't have an answer to the inevitable "well what else should we do". Facts, reasonable logic, and ridicule do not seem to work. Do you have any suggestions?

Re: Stanford historian uncovers a grim correlation between violence and inequality

#88
post #5

> It is almost universally true that violence has been necessary to ensure the redistribution of wealth at any point in time Strictly speaking, you don't need to redistribute wealth to lower inequality. Destroying wealth is sufficient. Violence and war is pretty good at that.

War does not seem to destroy wealth, but redistribute it?

If you're hungry and you attack someone, you can get their food.

Re: Stanford historian uncovers a grim correlation between violence and inequality

#89

Inequality is not inherently a bad thing. People should be compensated for the value they produce. Profits are a signal of how much people value what is produced. For example, people love iPhones, it no surprise that Apple is the most valuable company in the world. What causes resentment between classes is lack of mobility. This, IMO, is caused by government regulations and a banking system that hurts the middle clas…

Were you proposing an alternative to using governance to solve problems or just lamenting that poor governance can have poor outcomes?

How are you proposing that we encourage powerful concerns to not externalize their costs to others in their drive to increase private profits?

Re: Stanford historian uncovers a grim correlation between violence and inequality

#90
post #8

How about we take away everything down to 10^6$ from the 0.0001% richest and redistribute it to everyone. We repeat this with the 0.0001% of the richest every year from there on. Every time someone is chosen for this honour they get a medal.

Imagine for a moment you are a driven, self-made .00001%er. If you KNEW your profits were taken at the top, would you work hard and innovate? Or would you commit fraud and squirrel away your wealth or not bother. Im sure a few would see it as a 'goal', but stakeholders would doubtlessly disagree. The spirit, I agree with, but not possible to cleanly implement.

money is just a proxy for status.

the rich can be brought to heel so long as they're allowed to feel as though they're high status. if you take that away from them, they will not "produce" whatever value they're claimed to.

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