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Stanford historian uncovers a grim correlation between violence and inequality

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Re: Stanford historian uncovers a grim correlation between violence and inequality

#31

In the past few weeks the idea of 'legitimatizing violence' has been circulating heavily. On my Facebook feed most of it has centered on the idea that it is "okay" to punch neo-nazis now. The people saying this are people I'd never expect to. Twitter is similar. I wish I had stats on whether the legitimatization meme is really rising. To me, it looks like the fake news meme. Suddenly it's everywhere.

What's wrong with punching Nazis? Their ideology is one of genocide, trying to engage them peacefully only allows them platform and normalizes that. Richard Spencer called for an ethnic cleansing of black people, are we supposed to peacefully engage that? We knocked the Nazis out in WW2, let's not give them ground again

Addendum- in a political climate where there are white nationalists energized by certain staff decisions in the white house, the threat of neo-nazis being more brazen is real. Honestly, it's a red flag to me when somebody doesn't think it is okay to fight a nazi. A neo Nazi shot an IWW member last week, a rally almost happened in the Midwest, the time to crush fascism is now before it grows stronger under our currently xenophobic administration

Re: Stanford historian uncovers a grim correlation between violence and inequality

#32
post #6

Louis Chauvel, a french sociology professor, made a similar argument using a Prey-Predatory model with trade union membership and income inequality over the last 100 years : "This article shows empirically how trade union membership and income inequality are mutually related in twelve countries over more than 100 years. While past research has shown that high income inequality occurs alongside low trade union members…

Here's another reason for unions to become defunct over time, as explained by Steve Bruce in his book Sociology: A Very Short Introduction.

"Any kind of group activity requires organization. But as soon as one starts to organize one creates a division within the movement between the organized and the organizers, between ordinary members and officials. The latter quickly acquire knowledge and expertise that set them apart and give them power over ordinary members. The officials begin to derive personal satisfaction from their place in the organization and seek ways of consolidating it. They acquire an interest in the continued prosperity of the organization. For ordinary trade unionists, their union is just one interest in which they have a small stake. But for the paid officials the union is their employer. Preserving the organization becomes more important than helping it achieve its goals. As radical action may bring government repression, the apparatchiks moderate."

Re: Stanford historian uncovers a grim correlation between violence and inequality

#33
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's how communism was supposed to work, and the guys in charge of redistribution took the lion's share for themselves.

There are ways to making this work. Sadly, none applies to dollar. One solution. Make dollars worthless, unless they have been stamped with a stamp, for the current month. Basically force people to pay taxes on money. Say you have to pay 10% of the value. Got 2bil, congrats. You are paying $200 million each month.

Many people don't think that a flat tax is a good system. I think you'd want to tax rich people more, percentage wise.

Re: Stanford historian uncovers a grim correlation between violence and inequality

#34

In the past few weeks the idea of 'legitimatizing violence' has been circulating heavily. On my Facebook feed most of it has centered on the idea that it is "okay" to punch neo-nazis now. The people saying this are people I'd never expect to. Twitter is similar. I wish I had stats on whether the legitimatization meme is really rising. To me, it looks like the fake news meme. Suddenly it's everywhere.

Culturally, Americans have chosen "Nazis" and zombies as default groups on which we can assert violence without questioning our moral values or their expression. While Richard Spencer is even saying in that clip that he isn't a Neo Nazi (before getting punched) - a great deal of the American population don't draw the lines as finely as he might. He's certainly said some things that put him in that world of thought.

I share your discomfort with this in so far as we shouldn't normalize violence in daily life.

Re: Stanford historian uncovers a grim correlation between violence and inequality

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

War does not seem to destroy wealth, but redistribute it?

When a bomb destroys a building, to whom is the value of the building redistributed to?

To the building company that will rebuild it.

Re: Stanford historian uncovers a grim correlation between violence and inequality

#36
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

War does not seem to destroy wealth, but redistribute it?

the argument is that increased taxation to fund a war effort plus increased industrial output to produce weapons of war leads to redistribution of wealth from the wealthy (who are disproportionately taxed) to the working class (who work in the factories and related industries to produce the armaments).

I'm not sure that holds up in practice post WW2. At least here in the US.

As long as we're running wars or never ending wars, wealth gets redistributed from all tax payers to owners of factories building war machines or war services (defense contractors). These owners can be direct or "indirect" stock owners.

Sure the people who work in that industry get a "cut" but owners get the most and pay the lest to fund it as taxation on cap gains is lower then earned income.

Re: Stanford historian uncovers a grim correlation between violence and inequality

#37
post #6

Louis Chauvel, a french sociology professor, made a similar argument using a Prey-Predatory model with trade union membership and income inequality over the last 100 years : "This article shows empirically how trade union membership and income inequality are mutually related in twelve countries over more than 100 years. While past research has shown that high income inequality occurs alongside low trade union members…

I think this is really interesting, especially as how it has played out in recent years - right up to the last few months - in the UK.

I used to know a guy who worked for a trade union who was bemoaning its demise. In 1997 when Labour came to power in the UK for the first time in nearly 20 years, they strengthened employment laws so well, the need for trade union was perceived as lesser by much of the membership. This meant the trade union struggled to survive.

It's interesting to me that the campaigns they fought on and won around employment rights, was perhaps at the detriment at overall income inequality.

We now have zero-hour contracts (utterly horrific for those at the lower end of the skills spectrum), and CEOs earning many hundreds of times the lowest paid in their workforces.

Brexit was caused by income inequality for the most part. The perception by many is that immigration was causing a drag down on wages, but all the data suggests in fact immigration is net benefit to a population, and its the top rising away faster at the top and under-investment in public services that's actually the cause of the country's ills. Fixing this is a big thing, and whoever does it is likely to be long remembered.

In recent weeks, the leader of the Labour Party who is being roundly criticised for ineffectiveness (amongst other things) by those both inside and outside the party had his first bit of good press in some time: he suggested a wage cap inside companies linked to the lowest paid member of staff.

If you set this to say 50x gearing a company that is only paying its cleaners £10,000/year can only pay it's CEO £500,000. If the CEO feels he deserves £4m/year, he'd have to raise cleaners' salaries to £80,000/year - about 4 times the national average wage.

The hope is this will push down CEO wages reducing the race at the top of the pile, but also raise the lower wages a little, thereby improving quality of life for lower-skilled workers. Cleaners get £15,000, CEO gets £750,000. And so on. Net result: income inequality is reduced.

But how do you do that in a free market economy? His answer is surprisingly simple: government contracts that go out to tender should have this as a stipulation in order for the contract to be awarded.

If you are a train operator, eduction or health care provider, etc. and you're only paying your staff minimum wage (£6.70/hour for those aged 25 and over), you don't get the contract if your Chief Exec is earning more than the equivalent of £335/hour (a little shy of £700k/year).

There are a lot of firms who do nothing but government contracts whose CEOs are paid a considerable amount more than this.

Some will argue that this will lead to a situation where these firms can't hire "the best", or that they'll game it by making remuneration more geared to shares/dividends instead of salary/bonuses, but I think that's unlikely to bear out in reality: there is a steady queue of capable people more than willing to work for £335/hour running service companies.

Brilliantly, it even defeats one of the big scares going on at the moment around Brexit reactions and the touted UK/US trade deal being discussed: there is worry that US healthcare companies might start bidding and getting contracts for parts of the NHS.

Critics are worried that these companies are outright profiteering enterprises, evidenced, they say, by the state of US healthcare. This would either stall them from bidding/winning, or promote this policy across the Atlantic into those companies.

And if the remuneration balance does move to shares and dividends, I think that the Left will have won a major goal: they can promise low income taxes and raise taxes on dividends, knowing that this will be popular with very, very large parts of the population. Meanwhile, it'll redistribute wealth and normalise income distribution, all without having to scare the middle classes who mostly end up net winners.

Will it ever happen? Probably not with Mr Corbyn at the helm (his poll ratings are very poor and stagnating even long after last Summer's dramas), however he had party support from all factions, and across the benches. I can see it gaining traction before the next General Election.

Will it happen in the US? Well, if you elect a billionaire who appoints billionaires to his cabinet to perpetuate a system that made them billionaires, it's unlikely they'll nix it. But who knows - it could work.

Re: Stanford historian uncovers a grim correlation between violence and inequality

#38

In the past few weeks the idea of 'legitimatizing violence' has been circulating heavily. On my Facebook feed most of it has centered on the idea that it is "okay" to punch neo-nazis now. The people saying this are people I'd never expect to. Twitter is similar. I wish I had stats on whether the legitimatization meme is really rising. To me, it looks like the fake news meme. Suddenly it's everywhere.

Not sure if you are old enough to remember that far leftist ideological organizations were often violent up until the last quarter of the 20th century. This period of peacefulness is a recent phenomenon. One of the big pacifiers of democracy is that people accept the result because the majority voted for it. When you have a situation when 46% of the population is pushing an agenda that at least 48% of the population…

>at least 48% of the population is strongly against

Where did you get that number from? Hillary Clinton got 65.8 Million votes. That represents 20.6% of the United states population.

>That group often starts to look for alternative ways to flex its majority power.

See above. They were the majority of voters but they defintely don't represent the majority of the US.

Re: Stanford historian uncovers a grim correlation between violence and inequality

#39
post #8

How about we take away everything down to 10^6$ from the 0.0001% richest and redistribute it to everyone. We repeat this with the 0.0001% of the richest every year from there on. Every time someone is chosen for this honour they get a medal.

It would remain theft.

But since you asked for numbers: http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2011/03/feed-your-famil...

Re: Stanford historian uncovers a grim correlation between violence and inequality

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

War does not seem to destroy wealth, but redistribute it?

When a bomb destroys a building, to whom is the value of the building redistributed to?

Skanska?

But in all seriousness I would look at multi-national companies and industries "selling shovels" that benefit for rebuilding both sides of war.

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