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First they came for the Iranians

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Re: First they came for the Iranians

#231

Post by yummyfajitas »

guildwriter wrote: post #222
yummyfajitas wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to you, the people outside these booming cities suffer from drug and alcohol addiction, failure to use birth control, failure to build healthy stable relationships and joblessness. (Strangely, the illegals Trump wants to deport don't seem to have trouble finding a job - weird how looking for a job and accepting one when found solves that problem.) These people are morally deaf. They want to blame others the…

I'd say this is deeply unfair to people living in communities decimated by meth just as I would say it's deeply unfair to people living in inner cities. This is not to say that drugs alone are the problem, but that there are a multitude of factors creating an ugly feedback system. Words are difficult to convey this sort of thing so I'm going to do my best: 1) The primary source of jobs in the region leaves due to mac…

Your reasoning fails at (1). The money spent purchasing a home is sunk cost. It's gone. It's never coming back.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost#Loss_aversion_and_th...

Furthermore, I claim it does not require us to be "moral superpeople" to get past this situation. There are many populations with vastly worse problems than (1) who don't turn to drugs, unplanned pregnancy, abandoning their wives and refusing to work. For example, the population of rural Mexico.

In fact, it's this tendency for rural Mexicans to be "moral superpeople" that created one of Trump's key platforms. Mexicans are willing to move, abandon their societal networks, find a job and work it. Isn't this why Trump wants to build a wall?

Re: First they came for the Iranians

#232

Post by guildwriter »

fdschoeneman wrote: post #217
StavrosK wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the Nazi comparison either trivializes the Holocaust or unfairly hitlerizes Donald Trump for what may be a legitimate concern over technology transfer to a country that actively opposes US interests. It does neither. Warning that "that's how Germany started" doesn't mean that banning visas is as severe as burning people, or saying that trump will burn people. It means that one should be careful because these ar…

Meh. Hyperbole bothers me. But as long as you're using a healthcare analogy, allow me to suggest the possibility of negative side effects to the strong medicine. For example it is widely accepted that antibiotics are currently overprescribed, making them less of a strong and powerful weapon against disease over time.

To take the metaphor further, the really strong antibiotics have a chance to destroy the kidneys, making you a permanent dialysis case.

Re: First they came for the Iranians

#233

Post by Vintila »

cavisne wrote: post #63
helpfulanon wrote: post #35

What's more worrisome is how fervently anti-science the new administration is. Academics may eventually be persecuted in the US across the board - as they are already at the EPA, USDA etc - and regardless of citizenship. I firmly believe anyone with a brain should begin making contingency plans to regroup somewhere like Australia or Japan, outside of the reaches of far-right populism. An Erdogan-style academic purge…

when it comes to Islam Japan goes well past "far right populism". It's not a coincidence there's less than 70k Muslims in Japan.

Genuine question, is there an anti-muslim immigration policy in japan or some other force at play?

Re: First they came for the Iranians

#234

Post by Broken_Hippo »

fdschoeneman wrote: post #195

It's unclear what Trump is trying to accomplish here. It seems stupid and I feel bad for the people whose lives it diverts or puts in hold. But the Nazi comparison either trivializes the Holocaust or unfairly hitlerizes Donald Trump for what may be a legitimate concern over technology transfer to a country that actively opposes US interests. There are plenty of countries that suspend student visas without going on to…

The language neither trivializes the Holocaust nor does it unfairly hitlerizes Trump. It describes what is going on in a way more of the general population can understand.

There have been many populist governments around the world over time. Hitler wasn't the first to do that sort of thing. Unfortunately, not everyone remembers all the names or knows the history - so comparing him to a lesser-known leader (which he might be more comparable too) just doesn't work. It is like reading a literary reference to a book you've never read - it is easy to miss the context, even after the reference is explained.

So we use Hitler because we understand the Holocaust (and the like) was far too horrible for words to describe and we'd like to avoid going near anything of that manner. We draw comparisons between the early Hitler days and now because we notice them. Coincidentally, it follows a general pattern of authoritarian and fascist leaders and it scares the heck out of us.

And you think, surely, that can't happen here. This is the United States, after all. And at the same time, Trump is up there talking about how we should be using torture and waterboarding more because he's convinced it works. And we aren't sitting here appalled because we've started to become immune to his rhetoric. He's been saying this sort of thing for months. What else are we going to be sensitized to?

Furthermore, what does it mean for me when I go to visit family back in the states? If I get a tan and look "middle eastern", will I get harassed? Are they going to bring up that a portion of my family is Syrian, even though my grandmother was born in the US to immigrant parents? What of my family that still lives there? I know this stuff isn't an issue right now, but I'm afraid of what happens if it escalates. It isn't like we can trust the things that is being said from the top at this point.

This "unhelpful" hyperbole is the only thing we really have to be able to express this stuff to others.

Re: First they came for the Iranians

#235

Post by yummyfajitas »

apatters wrote: post #228
yummyfajitas wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to you, the people outside these booming cities suffer from drug and alcohol addiction, failure to use birth control, failure to build healthy stable relationships and joblessness. (Strangely, the illegals Trump wants to deport don't seem to have trouble finding a job - weird how looking for a job and accepting one when found solves that problem.) These people are morally deaf. They want to blame others the…

What do you think of the articles that have been posted to HN about how people make worse decisions when they're under financial stress? I think it's true and can explain behavior that is both self-destructive and selfish. To solve the problem you have to figure out how someone like that can get themselves out of the vicious cycle. Even if they are morally deaf I don't think much gets accomplished by focusing on that…

What do you think of the articles that have been posted to HN about how people make worse decisions when they're under financial stress?

I think they fail to explain the majority of the behavioral differences. Specifically, they fail to explain:

1) why the children of upper class parents do not start behaving like poor people when they are broke (e.g. during college or grad school).

2) why Mexicans make good choices like sneaking into America, working hard, forming stable family units and saving money.

3) why Indians make the same good choices even when they don't have the option of sneaking into America.

4) why unskilled Chinese immigrants (or folks back home) make the same good choices.

Re: First they came for the Iranians

#236

Post by Amezarak »

guildwriter wrote: post #166
grey-area wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good question. Obama claimed the president has the power to assassinate american citizens without trial and Trump is claiming further powers over immigration, science and the media. None of these things should be the sole purview of the president, this is why rule via executive orders is so dangerous. It would lead to the end of the republic. The American republic now resembles the late roman one, complete…

This is being exacerbated by the increasing factionalism within the US itself. I'm starting to understand better and better why Washington warned us of political parties in his farwell address "Without looking forward to an extremity of this kind (which nevertheless ought not to be entirely out of sight) the common and continual mischiefs of the spirit of party are sufficient to make it the interest and the duty of a…

Washington's farewell address was a political speech. He was unequivocally a federalist, and his speech was aimed at suppressing anti-federalism. He basically believed there should be only one party - his and Hamilton/Adams' party.

That's why very soon afterwards federalists in Congress passed laws allowing the President to imprison people for reporting truthfully what was happening in Congress (out of the fear it would generate outrage in the populace) and even for mere criticism of the President. For much of his tenure as Vice President under Adams, Jefferson lived in fear of his safety and was even afraid to speak out in private letters, as he believed federalists were reading his mail looking for something to ruin him with. Early America was incredibly factious, with rebellions and armed private militias and mobs perpetrating violence (and threats of violence) on their political opponents.

Politics hasn't changed much over time. Read Washington's speeches like you would Trump's or Obama's.

Re: First they came for the Iranians

#237

Post by matt4077 »

tiatia wrote: post #226
NicoJuicy wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe still has some of the best universities and allowance programs :)

Well, Europe has Oxford and Cambridge and?

Continental Europe tends towards having many "good" institutions at the expense of not having the extreme stand-outs like Stanford, MIT, or Harvard. There are also departments within universities which are excellent and well-known in their fields without being as well-known by the general public, as well as research institutes separate from universities, like the Max-Planck societies or EMBL.

Overall, I'd say the model makes it harder for something like Google to be created in Europe, but it makes it easier to get an education that will get you a job at Google.

Re: First they came for the Iranians

#238

Post by Amezarak »

tallanvor wrote: post #109
throwaway2131 wrote: post #27

I am an Iranian CS student. I had a fully funded PhD admission at one of the US universities. I was admitted for the Fall 2016 semester. I am currently in Iran due to my visa not being issued despite the 7 months I have waited for it. I was able to defer my admission to Spring 2017 semester, but then _this_ happened. I am quite sure that I will never be able to attend this program. I had very high hopes for my future…

I can't say much more than I'm sorry. Remember: Donald Trump does not represent the will of the American people. He won the electoral college, but around 2.8 million more people voted for Clinton than voted for him. He does not represent our values, our morals, or our view of where the country should be going. He represents those straight white males who don't want to adapt to the future, who don't want to give up th…

> I'll be honest, I think Trump is going to cost universities, labs, and businesses a lot of very smart people

This is absolutely terrible for the OP, but is there really a shortage of smart and skilled people? Given the low pay for many scientific positions and notoriously awful conditions for postgrads and the like working in labs, I have my doubts. Maybe the upside is that with the tap of smart people turned down a little, conditions will improve for the people who are left.

Re: First they came for the Iranians

#239

Post by beaconstudios »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #213
StavrosK wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We will continue to do everything we can to fight this policy and others like it. You say that, but I'm afraid the implication might be "short of doing anything that matters". Where are the protests? Why aren't people in the streets? Don't make the same mistake Germans did under Hitler. The government relies on each step affecting few enough people that nobody will be bothered enough to march, and after a thousand…

There are fairly large and violent protests against Trump. His supporters are regularly attacked. This has been true ever since he was a serious candidate. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/riots-break-out-wash... http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/inauguration-2017/anti-trum... http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016/08/hillary-supporters-c... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/06/0... In addit…

I might suggest clarifying where you stand on this, as right now it's ambiguous as to whether you are for or against these actions.

Re: First they came for the Iranians

#240

Post by didibus »

apatters wrote: post #202
mmrezaie wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know any interview or documentary of talking to samples of these populations? I wonder very much what they think. The interviews so far for me personally were showing that they are "morally deaf", but I am sure that this is not all the story (I probably living in my bubble).

Pardon the generalization here, but I know a lot of "non-college people" who support things like Trump and Brexit and would like to offer up an interpretation as to what many of them are thinking. Bear in mind they skew a bit older as well so they've seen a lot change. If you're a college educated person and/or a tech person and you live in a big coastal city the past few decades have probably been pretty great, thes…

Lots of self centered emotionally driven actions and decisions most often leads to counter productive results though, so I don't know you can justify someone making things worse as not being his fault.

I also think you are speaking for other people with whom you seem to have no connection too. Maybe you think they're just voting for Trump, because they like his promess of bringing jobs back, or maybe, they're voting for him cause they want Iranians out of their country based on pure racism.

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