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Should gifted students go to a separate school?

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Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#371

Post by mulmen »

Kalium wrote: post #365
mulmen wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm honestly not even sure what such a system would look like so I think you are jumping to conclusions. I just don't think segregated schools are the solution. I think we need to rethink the entire system. Every student learns differently and at a different pace so forcing everyone into the exact same experience isn't going to work. Maybe there is a case for more advanced opportunities based on academic (or athletic…

You've described a system in which gifted and less gifted students are taught together with the express goal being for the gifted students to "raise up" their less gifted peers. If I've mistaken you and you did not suggest that, please accept my deepest apologies for the mistake. You're absolutely right that every student is a unique individual. You want to teach students individually. One of the drawbacks of this is…

A combination of classes shared regardless of academic performance along with opportunities for students to be challenged up to their level would be a good start. In my day to day career and personal life I am not intellectually challenged at all times, I think it's valuable if school emulates this experience. I think it's important that students don't get placed in echo chambers where they begin to think that everyone thinks or performs like they do.

Like I said, I don't know how it would work but I don't think segregated schools are the solution, that's a step too far that eliminates opportunities for students of differing academic achievement to find common ground and teach each other something.

All students should be challenged up to their potential, having two options isn't fine grained enough. What do you do about the kids that are bored even in the "gifted" programs?

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#372

Post by mulmen »

Kalium wrote: post #366
mulmen wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What proposal are you referring to? I'm not advocating for treating gifted students as teaching aids. I am advocating for an educational environment that serves the interests of all students.

> Gifted students can help raise up their less gifted classmates. If these gifted students are to be the next generation of leaders this is an invaluable skill. And > I agree that gifted students have needs and those should be addressed but I don't think a separate school is the solution. Even AP classes feel like a problem to me because the most gifted students are not available to help those that struggle. Please,…

Yes I think it is important that students are exposed to differing viewpoints and levels of achievement on a regular basis. I also believe all students should be challenged up to their potential.

Removing the opportunity for the gifted students to learn how to cooperate with their less gifted peers does everyone a disservice, especially when as the future leaders those gifted students will have to know how to work with (and elevate) everyone, regardless of academic achievement. With this in mind segregated schools do a disservice to everyone involved.

I am not advocating a system where everyone is stuck in an introductory level class forever but I also don't think the opposite extreme is the solution.

It could take the form of encouraging gifted students to become tutors or changing curriculum requirements so that gifted students can progress ahead of their peers but without leaving the same classroom.

I don't have the answers but I don't think segregation is the solution.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#373

Post by ZeroGravitas »

stevejb wrote: post #184
xorcist wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The idea that we are supposed to teach each other is science fiction In a thread filled with anecdotes, and people who consider themselves experts on school because they went to one, the idea that you criticize is just about the only one with basis in research. Teaching the material is an effective way to gain insight on a subject. > We don't gain anything by throttling the motivation of gifted kids This keeps surf…

When I was a kid, I would happily teach another kid something if that kid was generally smart. It was an investment of time. There was the possibility that they could teach me things. For a given pair of students X and Y, it may be a poor investment for X to teach Y anything, if X will almost surely dominate Y within the problem domain. It would be stupid to force X to teach Y in this setting.

I think the general argument is that attempting to teach something, forces you to work with the material in your own head in a way that improves your own understanding. This is similar to "rubber duck debugging" where explaining a problem to an inanimate object leads you to the solution. But interacting with an actual human being often helps too.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#374

Post by ZeroGravitas »

jahewson wrote: post #115
Aqueous wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

4. This idea that education is only for my own individual welfare has to end. It's creating a culture of individual atomism that is instilling the most anti-social, selfish values and corroding the country at its roots. We go to school not just to be educated but to educate each other. If you're smart, you set an example to kids near us who don't feel that way. Hopefully, those who aren't labelled 'smart' gain from t…

Funny, because as I remember it the dumb kids just devoted their efforts to beating the shit out of everyone else, and disrupting the class as much as possible. No amount of punishment would change their behaviour. 20 years later some of them are now labelled as 'criminals' and they attend a different kind of selective institution. Maybe we should see what our kids can gain from spending time in their presence? :p

I watched a lawyer from Texas talking about how he was trying to save people on death row. And he realised that to actually achive that goal, he needed to go back and stop them from committing the crime in the first place, and to do that he needed to fix the circumnstances that led them into crime. Basically, a texan lawyer re-inventing the northern european walfare state from first principles.

https://www.ted.com/talks/david_r_dow_lessons_from_death_row...

" But the thing is that for every 15,000 dollars that we spend intervening in the lives of economically and otherwise disadvantaged kids in those earlier chapters, we save 80,000 dollars in crime-related costs down the road. Even if you don't agree that there's a moral imperative that we do it, it just makes economic sense.

16:09 I want to tell you about the last conversation that I had with Will. It was the day that he was going to be executed, and we were just talking. There was nothing left to do in his case. And we were talking about his life. And he was talking first about his dad, who he hardly knew, who had died, and then about his mom, who he did know, who was still alive.

16:36 And I said to him, "I know the story. I've read the records. I know that she tried to kill you." I said, "But I've always wondered whether you really actually remember that." I said, "I don't remember anything from when I was five years old. Maybe you just remember somebody telling you."

16:57 And he looked at me and he leaned forward, and he said, "Professor," -- he'd known me for 12 years, he still called me Professor. He said, "Professor, I don't mean any disrespect by this, but when your mama picks up a butcher knife that looks bigger than you are, and chases you through the house screaming she's going to kill you, and you have to lock yourself in the bathroom and lean against the door and holler for help until the police get there," he looked at me and he said, "that's something you don't forget." "

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#375

Post by John23832 »

LordKano wrote: post #290
John23832 wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because we have working models for high performing specialty schools. So just because? >"And how do you define "better"? Is it a lower teacher to student ratio? Higher average test scores? Graduation percentage? Percentage of graduating seniors accepted at 4 year colleges? Some other measure?" There is no "better" for everyone. Rather than just segregating students (and requiring more teachers resources etc.), work…

So just because? Because we know it can be done and how to do it. Have different classes at different speeds. We already have that. Education is more than a series of classes. It's the social interactions too. However, to say that segregation of kids should be the norm is a dangerous. IMO reckless. I find it dangerous, reckless and disingenuous for you to use a loaded term like "segregation".

The word segregation is off limits?

Sure, we all know the historical connotations, but we also all know the actual definition of the word. Though I will say, given the correlation between educational resources and race, the historical connotation may be appropriate in some of these gifted vs non gifted situations.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#376

Post by John23832 »

lend000 wrote: post #328
John23832 wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because we have working models for high performing specialty schools. So just because? >"And how do you define "better"? Is it a lower teacher to student ratio? Higher average test scores? Graduation percentage? Percentage of graduating seniors accepted at 4 year colleges? Some other measure?" There is no "better" for everyone. Rather than just segregating students (and requiring more teachers resources etc.), work…

> However, to say that segregation of kids should be the norm is a dangerous. Who said anything about segregation? I think kids/parents should have free choice about which school to go to: advanced/normal, where the school just makes suggestions and the parents can opt-out or in freely. The only way to get forced out of "advanced school" should be failing out.

> Who said anything about segregation?

Saying that student A must attend school B because of trait C and student X must attend school Y because of trait Z, is segregation. It just so happens to be based upon you deemed "educational qualities" rather than what we normally think about, race. Or more economic status.

> I think kids/parents should have free choice about which school to go to: advanced/normal, where the school just makes suggestions and the parents can opt-out or in freely.

We already have free choice. There are a myriad of private schools you can choose to send your children to. Pay the fees and send them.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#377

Post by Sacho »

justin_vanw wrote: post #370
kakarot wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is because of societal and structural neglect. Don't be a part of the problem.

I love how you assert that with such confidence, as though you actually know what you are talking about!

You are getting dangerously close to personal attacks, which I believe will detract from your otherwise reasonable points. I think the discussion on HN is one of a few places where you could get appreciation for the problems in the educatiom system and it would be a waste to end it in heated emotional attacks.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#378

Post by erroneousfunk »

randomgyatwork wrote: post #128

As a child, I had a learning disability, my school's principal told my parents that I'd never do anything with my life. My parents disagree and so did I, they found a private school that specialized in teaching students like me. The school did some intellectual tests to make sure I could learn, and learn I did. They spent tens of thousands of dollars so that I could be taught, in that environment I excelled. I don't…

So you're in favor of separate schools for kids with differing abilities and needs (like you had), but better testing and assessment to determine those abilities and needs? It sounds like you agree with the article.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#379

Post by randomgyatwork »

erroneousfunk wrote: post #378
randomgyatwork wrote: post #128

As a child, I had a learning disability, my school's principal told my parents that I'd never do anything with my life. My parents disagree and so did I, they found a private school that specialized in teaching students like me. The school did some intellectual tests to make sure I could learn, and learn I did. They spent tens of thousands of dollars so that I could be taught, in that environment I excelled. I don't…

So you're in favor of separate schools for kids with differing abilities and needs (like you had), but better testing and assessment to determine those abilities and needs? It sounds like you agree with the article.

Naw, I specifically said I don't trust the government.

Parents should be able to choose the kind of school their child goes to... Though, this is unfair to kids with bad parents. That said, people who will (knowingly) be bad parents, shouldn't have kids in the first place.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#380

Post by aaronchall »

bluGill wrote: post #252
aaronchall wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember my decision making process: It seemed to me that if I took the dual/early enrollment college course that I would definitely get the credit, whereas the AP course would actually require far more repetitive homework, lots more class time (which I didn't want to do), and only then would I have a chance to qualify for college credit. That's a no-brainer, in my book, but so many of my peers refused to follow my…

I remember mine - I knew university was possible, but I had no idea how to get into the program. Latter it was explained to me that the school had to may for my classes so they would do everything they could to discourage students from taking that track without being obvious about it. They didn't allow any information to be in school, the guidance consular never mentioned it (not that I saw them). By contrast AP was…

Exactly, they (the guidance counselors) did everything they could to persuade me not to do what was clearly, to me, in my best interests.

I do not have good feelings towards those people still to this day.

Of course, now I realize why when I asked him why he would discourage me, he repeated my question loudly for the rest of the guidance department to hear - he was covering his butt on the matter.

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