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Should gifted students go to a separate school?

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Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#361

Post by kakarot »

ltbarcly3 wrote: post #253
lol214365 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if you confound "dumb kid" and "problem kid". Certainly, get problem kids out of the equation, but that doesn't mean there isn't some benefit to different cognitive classes coming into contact with one another. If for no other reason, you don't want the cognitive elite going through life never knowing that the rest of the country are reasonable, functional people instead of fools and rubes.

Have you ever been to the DMV? The next time you go, look around at the other people you are in line with. That is 'the rest of the country' that you are talking about. They aren't especially functional or reasonable.

That is because of societal and structural neglect. Don't be a part of the problem.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#362

Post by iplaw »

whorleater wrote: post #195
conjectures wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Being rich does not mean your kid is smart But it does mean you can pay to get them tutored to jump through hoops, and generally push them harder. There's a very strong relationship between wealth and elite college admission for example. Which is down to culture and opportunity as much as gifts and talents. If being selective means controlling for socioeconomic background when assessing potential - then I'd be more…

> If being selective means controlling for socioeconomic background when assessing potential So...affirmative action like in colleges but for earlier forms of education?

I love how you put this.

To be fair, the TAG Magnet did have race-based quotas until very recently. Let's just say that the school is now ... less diverse. Although, the 1% "other", which encompassed all East and West Asian, has now makes up roughly one-third of the enrollment. The former court ordered 33/33/33/1 resulted in rejecting some of the most meritorious students.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#363

Post by iplaw »

stoic wrote: post #236
iplaw wrote: post #7

Yes. Without a single doubt. I attended the long-running #1 public school in the nation. The School for the Talented and Gifted Magnet High School in Dallas, TX. The environment fostered creativity and learning. There were no distractions or negative pressures or stressors. Being smart didn't result in being bullied, it resulted in being respected.

boo TAG go SEM! Glad to see another Townview graduate representing us well. :)

For sure!

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#364

Post by iplaw »

stoic wrote: post #236
iplaw wrote: post #7

Yes. Without a single doubt. I attended the long-running #1 public school in the nation. The School for the Talented and Gifted Magnet High School in Dallas, TX. The environment fostered creativity and learning. There were no distractions or negative pressures or stressors. Being smart didn't result in being bullied, it resulted in being respected.

boo TAG go SEM! Glad to see another Townview graduate representing us well. :)

Even if SEM plays second fiddle, it's the only other legitimate magnet in that building. ;)

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#365

Post by Kalium »

mulmen wrote: post #350
Kalium wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand. I agree! The current system is not working for anyone. I also think that the system you have described, in which gifted students are placed with their less gifted peers to raise them up, is identical to the current system. What you have described is literally identical to a system we have just agreed does not work. As a result, I believe that what you describe does not work.

I'm honestly not even sure what such a system would look like so I think you are jumping to conclusions. I just don't think segregated schools are the solution. I think we need to rethink the entire system. Every student learns differently and at a different pace so forcing everyone into the exact same experience isn't going to work. Maybe there is a case for more advanced opportunities based on academic (or athletic…

You've described a system in which gifted and less gifted students are taught together with the express goal being for the gifted students to "raise up" their less gifted peers. If I've mistaken you and you did not suggest that, please accept my deepest apologies for the mistake.

You're absolutely right that every student is a unique individual. You want to teach students individually. One of the drawbacks of this is that the gifted will not reliably be positioned to raise up their less gifted peers, as divergence in individual instruction compounds over time.

I've seen schools that offer advanced opportunities based on academic or athletic criteria. In practice, they tend to look like gifted students in AP or IB courses and their less gifted peers in other courses. You don't need separate schools to get de facto segregation - all it takes is a series of advanced opportunities on offer.

With all this in mind, how do you propose to offer gifted students opportunities and material equal to their abilities while keeping them available and relevant to help raise up their less gifted classmates?

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#366

Post by Kalium »

mulmen wrote: post #348
Kalium wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree! I do not believe they have nothing to offer. I do believe that what they have to offer may not universally be a good fit for a classroom environment. I know that when I was a gifted student, my less gifted peers had much to offer outside the classroom. They also had nothing to offer inside the classroom in terms of instructional aid. I believe that the system described fails because it neglects the needs of…

What proposal are you referring to? I'm not advocating for treating gifted students as teaching aids. I am advocating for an educational environment that serves the interests of all students.

> Gifted students can help raise up their less gifted classmates. If these gifted students are to be the next generation of leaders this is an invaluable skill.

And

> I agree that gifted students have needs and those should be addressed but I don't think a separate school is the solution. Even AP classes feel like a problem to me because the most gifted students are not available to help those that struggle.

Please, tell me if I'm mistaken. It sounds to me that you want to place gifted and less gifted students together, with the goal being to encourage and advance peer instruction of the less gifted by their gifted peers.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#367

Post by steverb »

akhilcacharya wrote: post #181
steverb wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more useful than graduating high school and then having to go through two years of mediocre undergraduate courses, no? What did you find non-useful about it? Did you end up having to take just as much undergraduate coursework to make up for some perceived deficiency? I'm genuinely curious.

1) Pointless if you want to go to a top school. I don't go to one, so 2) Most dual enrollment programs restrict what coursework you can take. Near zero intersection with my CS coursework, though I did get my general ed requirements done. 3) It's community college, it's not something you can put on a resume. With the credits I got I'd need to do a heavy schedule to graduate even in 3.

Thanks for the honest and useful response. It'll help me as I counsel my kids on what their options are and what they should do.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#368

Post by loki49152 »

Aqueous wrote: post #93
habosa wrote: post #85

A lot of comments here sound something like this: "I am smart and when I was in high school the classes bored me because they were taught to the lowest common denominator". This is not an argument for intellectual segregation of schools. While I could put forth a hundred arguments against this, here are a few off the top of my head: 1. When do we decide who is "gifted"? What happens to late bloomers? Are they forever…

4. This idea that education is only for my own individual welfare has to end. It's creating a culture of individual atomism that is instilling the most anti-social, selfish values and corroding the country at its roots. We go to school not just to be educated but to educate each other. If you're smart, you set an example to kids near us who don't feel that way. Hopefully, those who aren't labelled 'smart' gain from t…

What's corroding the country at its roots is this despicably evil belief that each should be enslaved to all, living for others first.

Have you heard the phrase, "Du bist nichts, das volk ist alles!" It's the tl;dr version of what you said.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#369

Post by dagw »

atErik wrote: post #355
dagw wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution to the problem you describe is different classes for students of different abilities, not different schools. The school I went to (in England) split most classes into 4 sets where the 'best' student's in each subject went to set 1 and the ones that need extra help went to set 3 or 4. Then there where extra-curricular 'clubs' in certain subjects for students that wanted to go even deeper than the lessons…

I agree w/ dagw. Schools need to have extra classes, extra-curricular classes, etc based on set of similarly gifted students' abilities, or based on set of similarly non-gifted/regular students' lack-of-abilities to improve their abilities. If needed, eligible volunteer or paid teacher should be arranged on specific time. A separate school for gifted students or a separate school for regular/non-gifted students is ve…

The other advantage of having everything in the same school is that it makes moving up (and down) in the sets a lot easier. A kid who is right on the cusp between set 1 and set 2 in math can be put into set 1 for a term and see how it works out. Or a kid who, for whatever reason, starts slipping can be moved down a set and given some extra support. If these changes required moving schools then that will never happen.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#370

Post by justin_vanw »

kakarot wrote: post #361
ltbarcly3 wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever been to the DMV? The next time you go, look around at the other people you are in line with. That is 'the rest of the country' that you are talking about. They aren't especially functional or reasonable.

That is because of societal and structural neglect. Don't be a part of the problem.

I love how you assert that with such confidence, as though you actually know what you are talking about!
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