Should gifted students go to a separate school? • Hacker News Board

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#321

Post by danielahn » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 10:51 PM UTC

justin_vanw wrote: post #303

swift wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Point 1 presents a false dichotomy. We can absolutely let kids move at different speeds while keeping them within the same school. And we can ensure that there are still shared classes and opportunities for students with different skills and abilities to interact. Frankly the tone of your comment troubles me. None of these students are more or less "deserving"; the goal is to help every student reach their potential.

Why is it the goal to help every student reach their potential? Who decided this, and what authority did they have to decide for us what the goal of all schools everywhere automatically must be? Also, you absolutely can't 'let' kids move at different speeds in the same school. You can let kids move at speeds where you enough kids at that speed. For a 90th percentile kid that is fine, there are roughly 10% of the stud…

I attended a public school in a Minneapolis / St. Paul suburb. Nothing particularly special about the school that I can recall today, although it was in a school district that included grad student housing for University of Minnesota so maybe the student body, as a whole, was more motivated than you may have found elsewhere.

Classes were tiered into ability, even at this age (I do not remember what the rubric was for deciding your tier) and for math classes I was pulled in to a self-study course along with 2 or 3 other students. There was no 'formal' class and instead the teacher would spend varying amounts of time with each student as they worked through the material on their own. Each student would work at his or her own pace.

I think this sort of system would do wonders for those both at the very top and at the very bottom. In college, I found office hours were somewhat similar in that students both behind and in front could get focused time with a professor to either catch up or advance even further ahead.

This is ignoring any budget and teacher constraints, but this seems like a real issue for both the 'top' and 'bottom' students.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#322

Post by Kalium » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 10:56 PM UTC

mulmen wrote: post #316

thebspatrol wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Gifted students can help raise up their less gifted classmates. Gifted students can often also be held back by their less gifted classmates, and feel a sense of isolation from being different. Gifted students with a stimulation-seeking kick also do not work well at all with traditional education. Industrial-revolution-era ideas about school are terrible as far as i'm concerned, and made education a very sour experie…

Sure, I'm not advocating for the status quo here. I just don't think segregation is the solution. All students struggle in our current education system so I think we need to solve that problem at the root rather than focus on just one symptom of a broken system. Gifted students should get what they need just like everyone else. I don't think a segregated system is good for anyone and the vacuum chamber you mention af…

You may find that very often, what gifted students need is to be separated from their less gifted peers for more appropriate instruction.

The solution and approach you described earlier is the one currently in use in a great many places. Indeed, it's the default approach in general, because it requires no efforts whatsoever on the part of the schools, faculty, or staff.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#323

Post by rustmemcpy » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 10:59 PM UTC

How I wish I had gone to a separate school!

I was in what you could define as the "gifted program" throughout middle and high school.

Even though I ostensibly received a more advanced and tailored education, I still shared classes with students much less engaged than I. I was always at the top of my classes and was never truly challenged. I also never had the opportunity to participate in any kind of maths or informatics competitions.

Having never been exposed to excellence, I chose to go to the much cheaper state school (their education will be just as good, the counselors claimed...).

There too I excelled in my classes with minimal effort, took multiple graduate level courses, and received glowing recommendation letters from my professors.

By the time I entered my PhD in a tier 1 university, I was so woefully unprepared -- both academically and emotionally -- that my eventual dropping out was a foregone conclusion.

I spiraled into a deep depression and wasted a couple years of my life playing video games and living with my parents. I ideated suicide almost daily and willfully put my life in danger (standing at the edge atop tall buildings, driving very fast, imbibing liquor until I blacked out).

Now, a decade later, I've mostly come to terms with my mediocrity, but perhaps I could've risen a bit from it had my intellect been properly fostered. But more to the point, had I been exposed to other smart kids and participated in competitions earlier on, my ego could've been slowly molded over my youth, rather than shattered in a few months.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#324

Post by Animats » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 11:01 PM UTC

NYC did this in 1938 with the Bronx High School of Science. That school has produced eight Nobel Prize winners.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#325

Post by mulmen » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 11:03 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #318

mulmen wrote: post #308

To answer the question in two words: absolutely not. I think this kind of segregation is harmful to the development of all students, including the gifted students. Gifted students can help raise up their less gifted classmates. If these gifted students are to be the next generation of leaders this is an invaluable skill. Nobody exists in a vacuum and putting students in an echo chamber during their formative years se…

> Gifted students can help raise up their less gifted classmates If the right techniques are used on the classroom, this might be true. In practice, gifted students who aren't challenged not only underperform their own potential, but also become disruptive influences that impair the learning environment for their classmates. > Would those that support segregated schools based on academic performance also support scho…

I think we agree on the problems but disagree on the solutions. All students need their needs addressed, not just gifted ones. Every single student is different so having schools that cater to one skill set does a disservice to all students.

We need to focus on using the right techniques for all students, not just the gifted ones.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#326

Post by mulmen » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 11:05 PM UTC

Kalium wrote: post #317

mulmen wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to imply that gifted students should be used as teacher aids but I think they have a different role to play in helping their fellow students. The teacher's job is still to teach but having peers to turn to is a valuable resource and skill that everyone should learn. By removing the best resource for that cooperation we do everyone a disservice.

I agree! Having peers to turn to for assistance is immensely valuable in any learning process. It's most valuable when both people involved have something to offer one another, allowing them to engage as equals. It's perhaps less than ideal to restrict gifted students to the level of their less gifted peers in the interests of said peers having resources to turn to for aid in learning. They are often unable to engage…

I think it is a mistake to assume that students with a lower level of academic achievement have nothing to offer students with a higher level of the same.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#327

Post by mulmen » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 11:06 PM UTC

Kalium wrote: post #322

mulmen wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, I'm not advocating for the status quo here. I just don't think segregation is the solution. All students struggle in our current education system so I think we need to solve that problem at the root rather than focus on just one symptom of a broken system. Gifted students should get what they need just like everyone else. I don't think a segregated system is good for anyone and the vacuum chamber you mention af…

You may find that very often, what gifted students need is to be separated from their less gifted peers for more appropriate instruction. The solution and approach you described earlier is the one currently in use in a great many places. Indeed, it's the default approach in general, because it requires no efforts whatsoever on the part of the schools, faculty, or staff.

Please do not misunderstand, I do not think the current system is working, I just don't think segregation is the solution.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#328

Post by lend000 » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 11:08 PM UTC

John23832 wrote: post #258

LordKano wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just make schools better for all, rather than replicating the educational resource hoarding that takes place in private schools? Because we have working models for high performing specialty schools. We already have endless infighting about improving every school. And how do you define "better"? Is it a lower teacher to student ratio? Higher average test scores? Graduation percentage? Percentage of graduating…

> Because we have working models for high performing specialty schools. So just because? >"And how do you define "better"? Is it a lower teacher to student ratio? Higher average test scores? Graduation percentage? Percentage of graduating seniors accepted at 4 year colleges? Some other measure?" There is no "better" for everyone. Rather than just segregating students (and requiring more teachers resources etc.), work…

> However, to say that segregation of kids should be the norm is a dangerous.

Who said anything about segregation? I think kids/parents should have free choice about which school to go to: advanced/normal, where the school just makes suggestions and the parents can opt-out or in freely. The only way to get forced out of "advanced school" should be failing out.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#329

Post by nmca » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 11:10 PM UTC

Having been to a bunch of different schools, selective, not, public and private, I honestly think the solution to this will be primarily technological. Allowing kids to learn at their own pace with a solid kick towards an interactive textbook of some kind seems like a much better solution than segregation. Let teachers stick to what they're good at (supporting kids) and keep them away from the stuff they suck at (maths). And yeah, this will be biased towards the more self-motivated. But that seems fairer than a one-off arbitrary test determining a huge proportion of your future.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#330

Post by vondur » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 11:10 PM UTC

I was fortunate when in first grade to be recognized as "gifted" and the school district I went to basically put us all in one class that was separate from the other students. From that point on, we basically had the same students in our classes until high school. In high school, most of had the same core classes together, but we'd be in classes with the regular students for our electives. We all had the same lunchtime and breaks with everyone else.