Should gifted students go to a separate school? • Hacker News Board

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#311

Post by morgante » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 10:30 PM UTC

FussyZeus wrote: post #157

morgante wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

my mom would always tell me the same thing every time I came home from being bullied. That I needed to learn to deal with dumber people who might not like me. She was wrong. Almost everyone I work with is of above average intelligent. That's the nature of a professional career: you're not randomly paired up with some doofus who just happens to share your zip code. Even in the cases where I do interact with people of…

There's a wide gulf between idiot bullying and just the behavior of people less educated/refined than you. No, you're not likely to have a white collar coworker give you a wedgie (at least, not without swift comeuppance from HR) but especially if you work in IT and have to support users, users who are often not nearly as tech savvy and occasionally can get frustrating, communication with people not on your wavelength…

> There's a wide gulf between idiot bullying and just the behavior of people less educated/refined than you.

Sure. I'm not claiming that everyone I interact with is as educated or intelligent as me.

But it's not like an alternative education would have zero diversity. When I went to boarding school, the average IQ went way up—but there was still plenty of variation. Plus, I had the whole new challenge of learning to interact with people from different cultures—some of whom had very limited English.

I'm not claiming everyone I work with is tech-savvy or even equally intelligent. What I'm disputing is the claim that being forced to undergo years of bullying and unchallenging instruction is somehow educational.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#312

Post by ianai » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 10:31 PM UTC

habosa wrote: post #85

A lot of comments here sound something like this: "I am smart and when I was in high school the classes bored me because they were taught to the lowest common denominator". This is not an argument for intellectual segregation of schools. While I could put forth a hundred arguments against this, here are a few off the top of my head: 1. When do we decide who is "gifted"? What happens to late bloomers? Are they forever…

I'll definite the gifted kids as the one's the others get picked on - and say that they should definitely have options to study elsewhere.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#313

Post by Kalium » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 10:36 PM UTC

mulmen wrote: post #308

To answer the question in two words: absolutely not. I think this kind of segregation is harmful to the development of all students, including the gifted students. Gifted students can help raise up their less gifted classmates. If these gifted students are to be the next generation of leaders this is an invaluable skill. Nobody exists in a vacuum and putting students in an echo chamber during their formative years se…

I understand and sympathize. These children are the best and brightest of us. The future will be build by, of, and for them. We cannot have them isolated from everyone else. That way lies disconnection, alienation, resentment, and a total lack of empathy. Madness!

When I was a gifted student in a classroom of regular students, I learned a great deal.

What I learned was not how to help raise up my classmates. What I learned was that my classmates were petty and cruel people who got their jollies bringing me pain. Combine this with material that was far below me and rarely able to hold my attention and the result was a thoroughly miserable experience for a number of years.

I got a diverse viewpoint and understanding of people different from me. I came to learn something else, too - I despised them.

Gifted students are students. Please don't treat them as unpaid assistant teachers. They need to be cared for, kept safe, challenged, and taught. The same as every single other student.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#314

Post by thebspatrol » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 10:37 PM UTC

mulmen wrote: post #308

To answer the question in two words: absolutely not. I think this kind of segregation is harmful to the development of all students, including the gifted students. Gifted students can help raise up their less gifted classmates. If these gifted students are to be the next generation of leaders this is an invaluable skill. Nobody exists in a vacuum and putting students in an echo chamber during their formative years se…

>Gifted students can help raise up their less gifted classmates.

Gifted students can often also be held back by their less gifted classmates, and feel a sense of isolation from being different. Gifted students with a stimulation-seeking kick also do not work well at all with traditional education.

Industrial-revolution-era ideas about school are terrible as far as i'm concerned, and made education a very sour experience for me once the novelty of going to school wore off.

I'm all for the notion that segregation of education is a bad idea (taxes that benefit only one's immediate district are terrible), but I totally don't buy into the notion that smart kids have anything to gain by being taught the way average and dumb kids have to be.

Also, this is anecdotal and field-dependent, but after high school you really do kind of live in a vacuum. In software especially, it feels like everyone kind of fits the archetype.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#315

Post by mulmen » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 10:39 PM UTC

Kalium wrote: post #313

mulmen wrote: post #308

To answer the question in two words: absolutely not. I think this kind of segregation is harmful to the development of all students, including the gifted students. Gifted students can help raise up their less gifted classmates. If these gifted students are to be the next generation of leaders this is an invaluable skill. Nobody exists in a vacuum and putting students in an echo chamber during their formative years se…

I understand and sympathize. These children are the best and brightest of us. The future will be build by, of, and for them. We cannot have them isolated from everyone else. That way lies disconnection, alienation, resentment, and a total lack of empathy. Madness! When I was a gifted student in a classroom of regular students, I learned a great deal. What I learned was not how to help raise up my classmates. What I l…

I don't mean to imply that gifted students should be used as teacher aids but I think they have a different role to play in helping their fellow students. The teacher's job is still to teach but having peers to turn to is a valuable resource and skill that everyone should learn. By removing the best resource for that cooperation we do everyone a disservice.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#316

Post by mulmen » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 10:42 PM UTC

thebspatrol wrote: post #314

mulmen wrote: post #308

To answer the question in two words: absolutely not. I think this kind of segregation is harmful to the development of all students, including the gifted students. Gifted students can help raise up their less gifted classmates. If these gifted students are to be the next generation of leaders this is an invaluable skill. Nobody exists in a vacuum and putting students in an echo chamber during their formative years se…

>Gifted students can help raise up their less gifted classmates. Gifted students can often also be held back by their less gifted classmates, and feel a sense of isolation from being different. Gifted students with a stimulation-seeking kick also do not work well at all with traditional education. Industrial-revolution-era ideas about school are terrible as far as i'm concerned, and made education a very sour experie…

Sure, I'm not advocating for the status quo here. I just don't think segregation is the solution. All students struggle in our current education system so I think we need to solve that problem at the root rather than focus on just one symptom of a broken system.

Gifted students should get what they need just like everyone else.

I don't think a segregated system is good for anyone and the vacuum chamber you mention after high school is a problem in my opinion. We should all learn to seek diverse viewpoints for our entire lives.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#317

Post by Kalium » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 10:45 PM UTC

mulmen wrote: post #315

Kalium wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand and sympathize. These children are the best and brightest of us. The future will be build by, of, and for them. We cannot have them isolated from everyone else. That way lies disconnection, alienation, resentment, and a total lack of empathy. Madness! When I was a gifted student in a classroom of regular students, I learned a great deal. What I learned was not how to help raise up my classmates. What I l…

I don't mean to imply that gifted students should be used as teacher aids but I think they have a different role to play in helping their fellow students. The teacher's job is still to teach but having peers to turn to is a valuable resource and skill that everyone should learn. By removing the best resource for that cooperation we do everyone a disservice.

I agree! Having peers to turn to for assistance is immensely valuable in any learning process. It's most valuable when both people involved have something to offer one another, allowing them to engage as equals.

It's perhaps less than ideal to restrict gifted students to the level of their less gifted peers in the interests of said peers having resources to turn to for aid in learning. They are often unable to engage as equals.

Have you considered that this has distinct disadvantages for the gifted, who are then unable to pursue their full potentials so that they can learn to raise up their less gifted peers? This might not be a joyous experience for all concerned.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#318

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 10:48 PM UTC

mulmen wrote: post #308

To answer the question in two words: absolutely not. I think this kind of segregation is harmful to the development of all students, including the gifted students. Gifted students can help raise up their less gifted classmates. If these gifted students are to be the next generation of leaders this is an invaluable skill. Nobody exists in a vacuum and putting students in an echo chamber during their formative years se…

> Gifted students can help raise up their less gifted classmates

If the right techniques are used on the classroom, this might be true. In practice, gifted students who aren't challenged not only underperform their own potential, but also become disruptive influences that impair the learning environment for their classmates.

> Would those that support segregated schools based on academic performance also support schools segregated based on athletic performance?

Having sports-focussed magnet schools would be somewhat novel, but not given the existence of not only gifted-specific magnets but also tech-focussed magnets, performing arts magnets, and others, a athletics-focussed magnet with athletic aptitude as a key consideration in selection criteria wouldn't be that odd, and might improve education for everyone (including those selected into it -- having an sports-amd-athletics focus in the academic subjects might keep those students more interested and successful.)

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#319

Post by zefman » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 10:50 PM UTC

dijit wrote: post #2

Absolutely. I'm going to sound very self-centered and certainly not humble but when I was enrolled in mandatory education I was doing so under Tony Blair's Labour government. This government was elected under premises such as nationalisation and additionally "Education, Education, Education"[0]. As such no child was allowed to fail school. This had the opposite affect in my primary school, instead of segregating the…

Strangely grammar schools still exist in Kent.

You have to sit an exam called the 11+ to enter which is much more like an IQ test than a standard subject based exam.

The most comman argument against them is that privelleged families can afford to tutor their kids specifically to pass this exam.

I was lucky enough to pass the exam, and while there definitely were instances of well off kids who had massive amounts of tutoring, the vast majority were from all kinds of different backgrounds, and levels of education.

For me it was an overwhelmingly positive experience, but I completely understand both sides of the argument.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#320

Post by bootload » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 10:50 PM UTC

"Despite two Senate inquiries in 1988 and 2001, it has taken 15 years and a state parliamentary review for the Victorian government to decide to build a specialist high school for students who are gifted, specifically targeting those from rural and regional Victoria."

Victorian here. Back when I was in HS is semi-rural setting, the school ran an interesting experiment for students for most of the time I was there. The curriculum was designed in 6m semesters with students allowed to move up years in subjects they excelled in. It was labelled, "vertical integration"/ There were advantages and disadvantages. You could for instance move up two years in study, move from year nine to years eleven maths. I know of one student who did this. While they handled the subject, they didn't handle the social dynamics well. This is a problem that could have been solved.

Having to move to another school isn't feasible on a daily basis due to distances involved. Government schools in my state have been gutted by all measures, facilities, buildings and specialised teacher training, so maybe the powers-to-be are centralising smart kids and looking at ways of funding schools even less?