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Should gifted students go to a separate school?

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Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#301

Post by imdsm »

pawn wrote: post #218
CodeCube wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The very gifted kids are going to isolate themselves from the dumb people as quickly as they can as soon as they can no matter what you do. This is quite an anecdote you've got there ... cause in my experience (gifted, and in gifted classes with many much brighter than me), all of us kept a pretty diverse (academically) social group. But that's _my_ anecdote ... surely people will exist on the entire spectrum betwe…

My anecdote matches yours. In highschool I was one of the higher-ranked people in my class, but I got along better with guys on the lower-end of the scale. Despite getting terrible grades, they often had a surprisingly quick wit that made them a pleasure to be around. Probably because they cared more about being funny than getting good grades. I sometimes wonder if it was motivation more than actual capacity that mad…

My anecdote conflicts. I found that being in an institution, following a learning path, designed for the average child, meant I progressed less than I could and had my potential wasted. Poorly behaved children or those who aren't academically minded will have one teacher each, trying to force them to climb that academic tree, while high-potential children will be left to rot and told off for wanting to do more.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#302

Post by kazimuth »

cema wrote: post #222
willholloway wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Segregating gifted children in with the regular population will one day soon be seen as child abuse. It has profound negative effects on the child, and leads to really terrible outcomes like drug abuse and absenteeism. We have a lot of evidence that shows this. What you posit above amounts to exploiting the gifted child to benefit the needs of the other children. Gifted children are very open to being exploited by pe…

Segregating gifted children in with the regular population Do you mean desegredating, that is, keeping them in? If so, I agree, it may be bordering on abuse. I have only anecdotal evidence to support it, but I suspect there may have been studies.

That's about as good as actually having studies, right?

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#303

Post by justin_vanw »

swift wrote: post #294
justin_vanw wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. This is a Harrison Bergeron argument. "We can't let people move quickly, because it might be unfair to other people." Effectively this means denying the people you can identify because there are going to be other 'deserving' people you don't identify. Replace 'education' with 'food' and see if this logic holds up: "We shouldn't feed the people we know are hungry, because other people might be hungry and now they w…

Point 1 presents a false dichotomy. We can absolutely let kids move at different speeds while keeping them within the same school. And we can ensure that there are still shared classes and opportunities for students with different skills and abilities to interact. Frankly the tone of your comment troubles me. None of these students are more or less "deserving"; the goal is to help every student reach their potential.

Why is it the goal to help every student reach their potential? Who decided this, and what authority did they have to decide for us what the goal of all schools everywhere automatically must be?

Also, you absolutely can't 'let' kids move at different speeds in the same school. You can let kids move at speeds where you enough kids at that speed. For a 90th percentile kid that is fine, there are roughly 10% of the students that share their speed (or nearly do) so you can form a class of them. For the top 1% or top .1% you just can't, and the 99.9th percentile kid can learn much, much, much faster than the 90th percentile kid, and can immediately understand concepts that the 90th percentile kid won't be able to grasp until they are years older (if ever). Putting those kids in the same class means one will be impossibly behind or the other will be incredibly bored.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#304

Post by ergothus »

habosa wrote: post #85

A lot of comments here sound something like this: "I am smart and when I was in high school the classes bored me because they were taught to the lowest common denominator". This is not an argument for intellectual segregation of schools. While I could put forth a hundred arguments against this, here are a few off the top of my head: 1. When do we decide who is "gifted"? What happens to late bloomers? Are they forever…

I have views on both sides of this:

* On one side, I bounced between school districts as a military brat and was often labelled "gifted". Usually this resulted in me getting extra education. When it didn't, I was often bored, sometimes to the detriment of my education.

* On the other side, in one district you had the lower math class, and the higher math class, and within the higher class each section would start with a pre-test to see what you already knew, and then split the class into two for that section. Once I slipped into this lesser "higher" class, I felt I could never move up to the higher/higher class because I never learned ahead enough to meet the needs of the next pre-test. (It never occurred to younger me to read ahead in the book. So much for being gifted.)

So I think the arguments you list ALL have validity and should absolutely be taken seriously. OTOH, I think current schools do a poor job of keeping talented or more educated students engaged, which can drag down things for everyone. I don't know what the answer is - you've done a good job of talking about why separate schooling is a bad solution - but I think the status quo is also a bad solution.

(that said, I'm in favor of raising educational opportunities for the poor and disadvantaged first, because I'd rather have talented-but-only-adequately-taught people in a world of adequately taught people than I would have a world of poorly taught people save for a few bright stars)

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#305

Post by Helmet »

ltbarcly3 wrote: post #253
lol214365 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if you confound "dumb kid" and "problem kid". Certainly, get problem kids out of the equation, but that doesn't mean there isn't some benefit to different cognitive classes coming into contact with one another. If for no other reason, you don't want the cognitive elite going through life never knowing that the rest of the country are reasonable, functional people instead of fools and rubes.

Have you ever been to the DMV? The next time you go, look around at the other people you are in line with. That is 'the rest of the country' that you are talking about. They aren't especially functional or reasonable.

And what exactly about them isn't functional or reasonable? I was at the DMV the other day; there were people from all walks of life and they all looked functional and reasonable.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#306

Post by URSpider94 »

People are disregarding three points:

1. gifted education is a difference in kind, not degree. Gifted kids need different things from their teachers to succeed, not just "more." I don't see anyone asking to devote significantly more resources to gifted students, what they are asking for is to educate them in ways that give them the best chance of success.

2. It's a fallacy to think that giftedness means that students will just do fine in regular courses, and may be just a little bored. Many gifted children (and some of them have posted to this list) will fail completely in a regular class setting, because they are unable to engage with the material or their peers. A significant number of gifted kids end up dropping out or under-achieving because they aren't being served.

3. Gifted kids are often born to gifted parents, but that does not mean rich or successful parents. There are a huge number of gifted kids in minority communities who are living in poverty.

Want to learn more? Documentary filmmaker Marc Smolowitz is working on a feature-length film on giftedness. http://documentaries.org/cid-films/the-g-word/

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#307

Post by URSpider94 »

habosa wrote: post #85

A lot of comments here sound something like this: "I am smart and when I was in high school the classes bored me because they were taught to the lowest common denominator". This is not an argument for intellectual segregation of schools. While I could put forth a hundred arguments against this, here are a few off the top of my head: 1. When do we decide who is "gifted"? What happens to late bloomers? Are they forever…

My reply:

1. There are standard tests and evaluations for giftedness, these can be given at any time past age 4. They are about thinking and behavior, not achievement. Years of study shows that these traits don't generally change much with age. So called "late bloomers", if they are gifted, would almost certainly have been gifted much earlier in life but maybe not identified.

2. I think this is a valid point, but I'd propose that this be addressed more by making sure that kids are interacting with peers outside the academic context. Putting kids in the same classroom where they are underserved on either extreme simply because it's good to socialize seems like the wrong priority to me.

3. This is an artifact of how we identify giftedness today. Giftedness exists in all cultures and socioeconomic groups. Today, only the most motivated parents get their gifted kids identified. We could fix that with a national initiative to identify gifted students. Additionally. Not that this is necessarily your argument, but motivated parents do not make children gifted. No amount of Baby Einstein or aggressive pre-schooling is going to change a kid's IQ dramatically. Likewise,profoundly gifted kids given very few opportunities can be and are still gifted.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#308

Post by mulmen »

To answer the question in two words: absolutely not.

I think this kind of segregation is harmful to the development of all students, including the gifted students.

Gifted students can help raise up their less gifted classmates. If these gifted students are to be the next generation of leaders this is an invaluable skill.

Nobody exists in a vacuum and putting students in an echo chamber during their formative years seems irresponsible. A diverse viewpoint and understanding of people different than you is crucial to a healthy society. If we learn early on that we are better or worse than others because of an arbitrary metric that will be carried forward for the rest of our lives.

Would those that support segregated schools based on academic performance also support schools segregated based on athletic performance?

I agree that gifted students have needs and those should be addressed but I don't think a separate school is the solution. Even AP classes feel like a problem to me because the most gifted students are not available to help those that struggle.

Standardized testing hurts all students, not just gifted ones. We need to take a serious look at how education works in general so we can challenge all students to achieve their best. I don't think this can be done with echo chambers that create an increasing gap in academic performance and student development.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#309

Post by HeavenBanned »

maverick_iceman wrote: post #49
shawabawa3 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's no doubt that it's a good thing for the students that go to these schools. The question is whether it's good for society as other schools may suffer

How is it bad for society for bright students to excel?

100 million goes to a handful of "bright schools"

1 million goes to 100+ "regular schools"

The circlejerk here is that it would "help immensely" and "move the needle forward" but it would just result in further deepening the gap between rich and poor. The mindset of this sub is deeply anti-Communist and you can see it in the replies.

Separating class from this issue is absolutely impossible.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#310

Post by anders30 »

magicalist wrote: post #158
zeteo wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What happens to late bloomers? Are they forever cast down into a track of lower opportunity? It's a good point, but it only argues for easy transfers into / out of the "gifted" track. > What about the social benefits of being around people who are on a different intellectual level? Only a good point if it comes from someone willing to live up to it. Would you willingly relocate to rural Kansas or inner Detroit for…

> It's a good point, but it only argues for easy transfers into / out of the "gifted" track. The problem is if they've missed the first eight years of the gifted track, they can't just transfer in and be expected to know what's going on.

I think your point here should resonate louder (at least where I live in the USA).

Jumping in and out of the "gifted" track should be possible if such a thing exists; however to your point, how would the track be defined and what should it contain? Would there be a list of items that need to be mastered? What evaluations determine if you can jump in... or when you need to "jump out"? Would the "gifted" track be age based the way it is currently or could the contents be tailored to fit the needs of the individual students?

Following that line of thinking, at what point do you qualify for a job? Also, what social stigmas would we attach to "jumping out"?

I don't have answers, but your point led me to some very interesting questions. Thank you!

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