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Should gifted students go to a separate school?

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Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#151

Post by zeteo »

habosa wrote: post #85

A lot of comments here sound something like this: "I am smart and when I was in high school the classes bored me because they were taught to the lowest common denominator". This is not an argument for intellectual segregation of schools. While I could put forth a hundred arguments against this, here are a few off the top of my head: 1. When do we decide who is "gifted"? What happens to late bloomers? Are they forever…

> What happens to late bloomers? Are they forever cast down into a track of lower opportunity?

It's a good point, but it only argues for easy transfers into / out of the "gifted" track.

> What about the social benefits of being around people who are on a different intellectual level?

Only a good point if it comes from someone willing to live up to it. Would you willingly relocate to rural Kansas or inner Detroit for the social benefits of being around people who are on a different intellectual level?

> "Gifted" kids often come with motivated parents. Removing these children from schools will take their parents with them. [...] The worst schools will never get better if all the talent is sucked out of them.

Again this sounds very good on paper. But how would you feel about a very similar argument: people should never be allowed to move to LA, NYC or DC from impoverished communities. These are motivated people, and the worst communities will never get better if all the talent is sucked out of them.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#152

Post by mdemare »

stinky613 wrote: post #5
dijit wrote: post #2

Absolutely. I'm going to sound very self-centered and certainly not humble but when I was enrolled in mandatory education I was doing so under Tony Blair's Labour government. This government was elected under premises such as nationalisation and additionally "Education, Education, Education"[0]. As such no child was allowed to fail school. This had the opposite affect in my primary school, instead of segregating the…

But, on the flip side, faster-learning kids need to learn how to live/work/deal with slower-learning kids and vice versa. The purpose of schooling goes beyond the accumulation of facts.

But they do. I went to a Dutch gymnasium at age 12. The smartest 5% of the population is admitted there. Did the concept of faster-learning kids and slower-learning kids disappear there? Hardly! There were huge differences in aptitude.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#153

Post by ebola1717 »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #123
hawkice wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We go to school not just to be educated but to educate each other. If we're smart, we set an example to kids near us who don't feel that way. Hopefully, those who aren't labelled 'smart' gain from the presence of 'smart' students and 'smart' students gain from theirs. So, if we trap the geeks where they can be bullied and beaten, they'll understand what the real world is like better? I'll be real with you, I've nev…

Even if you were to create a special "school for smart people only" and magically teleport all geeks there, I wouldn't be sure it would eliminate the problem of geeks being bullied. Bullying seems to be an emergent thing that comes up naturally in the sort of environment a school is - as long as kids have a "hierarchy of popularity", there will be some people at the bottom of it, and those are your bullying targets.…

I went to a "double academically talented" middle school, and got bullied there, more than in my elementary school. Nothing to do with "smartness" or "geekiness" - middle school kids are just horrible lol

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#154

Post by morgante »

FussyZeus wrote: post #94
habosa wrote: post #85

A lot of comments here sound something like this: "I am smart and when I was in high school the classes bored me because they were taught to the lowest common denominator". This is not an argument for intellectual segregation of schools. While I could put forth a hundred arguments against this, here are a few off the top of my head: 1. When do we decide who is "gifted"? What happens to late bloomers? Are they forever…

I agree with the second especially. The whole point of School is to prepare you for the world we live in (it's effectiveness in many aspects is highly up for debate, but that's another discussion) and you will frequently find yourself in Real Life having to deal with people not necessarily like you. Further isolating people into given groups is only going to increase the social fracturing we already see taking place.…

my mom would always tell me the same thing every time I came home from being bullied. That I needed to learn to deal with dumber people who might not like me.

She was wrong. Almost everyone I work with is of above average intelligent. That's the nature of a professional career: you're not randomly paired up with some doofus who just happens to share your zip code.

Even in the cases where I do interact with people of below average intelligence, it's perfectly fine and pleasant because adults are generally speaking not assholes to each other. Part of growing up is learning some social graces.

In retrospect, I have no idea where this idea comes from. Do people think that the idiot bully is going to magically get into Harvard and get a professional job?

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#155

Post by xiaoma »

habosa wrote: post #85

A lot of comments here sound something like this: "I am smart and when I was in high school the classes bored me because they were taught to the lowest common denominator". This is not an argument for intellectual segregation of schools. While I could put forth a hundred arguments against this, here are a few off the top of my head: 1. When do we decide who is "gifted"? What happens to late bloomers? Are they forever…

If you truly value your second point, then collecting outliers (at either end) into special schools is the way to go. This way, even exceptional students will regularly encounter peers who struggle more or less with various work than they do.

If you just throw everyone into a single school, it's more like not separating athletes into recreational and competitive leagues. The gifted would rarely face any competition at all and the strugglers would very rarely have a chance to shine.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#156

Post by hackinthebochs »

brightball wrote: post #71
dijit wrote: post #2

Absolutely. I'm going to sound very self-centered and certainly not humble but when I was enrolled in mandatory education I was doing so under Tony Blair's Labour government. This government was elected under premises such as nationalisation and additionally "Education, Education, Education"[0]. As such no child was allowed to fail school. This had the opposite affect in my primary school, instead of segregating the…

You just described why so many people support school choice and voucher policies. It is absolutely mind boggling to me how anyone can consider more options to be worse than a one size fits all model. EDIT: In keeping with the trend, took about 30 seconds to get downvoted.

The issue is that funding for public schools is extremely limited. Having more choice means even less funding for those that need it the most. Ideally, there would be endless funding and so more choice doesn't negatively impact those at the bottom. But that's not the reality we face.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#157

Post by FussyZeus »

morgante wrote: post #154
FussyZeus wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the second especially. The whole point of School is to prepare you for the world we live in (it's effectiveness in many aspects is highly up for debate, but that's another discussion) and you will frequently find yourself in Real Life having to deal with people not necessarily like you. Further isolating people into given groups is only going to increase the social fracturing we already see taking place.…

my mom would always tell me the same thing every time I came home from being bullied. That I needed to learn to deal with dumber people who might not like me. She was wrong. Almost everyone I work with is of above average intelligent. That's the nature of a professional career: you're not randomly paired up with some doofus who just happens to share your zip code. Even in the cases where I do interact with people of…

There's a wide gulf between idiot bullying and just the behavior of people less educated/refined than you. No, you're not likely to have a white collar coworker give you a wedgie (at least, not without swift comeuppance from HR) but especially if you work in IT and have to support users, users who are often not nearly as tech savvy and occasionally can get frustrating, communication with people not on your wavelength is essential.

This goes doubly for high end sales, BTB work, dozens of other professional environments. Maybe you work in a place where the only other people you see every day are coworkers that you like, but in my experience that isn't very commonplace.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#158

Post by magicalist »

zeteo wrote: post #151
habosa wrote: post #85

A lot of comments here sound something like this: "I am smart and when I was in high school the classes bored me because they were taught to the lowest common denominator". This is not an argument for intellectual segregation of schools. While I could put forth a hundred arguments against this, here are a few off the top of my head: 1. When do we decide who is "gifted"? What happens to late bloomers? Are they forever…

> What happens to late bloomers? Are they forever cast down into a track of lower opportunity? It's a good point, but it only argues for easy transfers into / out of the "gifted" track. > What about the social benefits of being around people who are on a different intellectual level? Only a good point if it comes from someone willing to live up to it. Would you willingly relocate to rural Kansas or inner Detroit for…

> It's a good point, but it only argues for easy transfers into / out of the "gifted" track.

The problem is if they've missed the first eight years of the gifted track, they can't just transfer in and be expected to know what's going on.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#159

Post by [deleted] »

_m8fo wrote: post #109
employee8000 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is unadulterated bullshit. The idea that we are supposed to teach each other is science fiction that you just made up. We need smart people in society so that we can advance. They are the leaders that will help move the needle. If we burden our best and brightest young people with "educating" their peers then we as a society lose out. The gifted children should be free to learn at their own pace so that as they…

You believe that the brightest children helping their more unenlightened peers will result in society losing out?

[deleted]

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#160

Post by cousin_it »

_m8fo wrote: post #84

I'm shocked, yet paradoxically unsurprised that so many of the comments here are saying "yes" to the question. In practice, separating gifted students does two things: 1. Accelerates income inequality (there's no way the gifted students on average will do poorer than the 'regular' students) 2. Remove equality of opportunity. What exactly is a gifted school going to do that would help gifted students and not regular s…

Gifted kids flourish when other kids have interesting conversations with them instead of beating them up. If you know how to make that happen in a regular school, I'm all ears. But in my experience that's impossible and segregation is the only answer.
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