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How to Deal with Populism

caracaschronicles.com

81–90 of 95 posts

Re: How to Deal with Populism

#81
post #3

As someone who knows a lot of trump supporters and trump haters, this is what people who are afraid of trump need to recognize. I've seen the advice from this article work first hand, and I've seen people who don't understand what the author is talking about make situations worse first hand.

Interesting. Maybe give some examples?

Dismissing someone's beliefs as absurd, racist, ignorant, crazy, will not change their mind. You have to be patient, calm, and curious. Most people don't really know why they believe what they believe. This isn't a comment on trump supporters in particular, just something I find true in general.

It's hard work, but what I've found to work is this: Instead of getting into an argument, state what you believe and talk with them in terms of cooperatively finding out what claim is correct. Don't let your ego get in the way. Figure out what exact parts of the claim they believe (or disbelieve), and research those specific parts, with them present. For example, say someone doesn't believe in global warming. Maybe they just don't believe in anthropogenic global warming, or they misunderstand some of the evidence. Shouting that they're stupid (which I've done before, it's about as ineffective and childish as it sounds) won't work, because you aren't addressing their actual concerns, which they themselves might not be fully aware of.

This is slow, hard work, but it does pay off. You have to keep an open mind, and be 100% aware of your own behavior. If you are dismissive because of a value difference between you and the other persons cultural background, it's counter productive. Likewise, if you can't admit when you're wrong, then it doesn't work either. Admit when you don't know something, and that you are flawed and imperfect like everyone else. Take this as an opportunity to learn about your own beliefs.

A concrete example: A close friend believes some conspiracy theories (no AGW, moonlanding faked, etc.) I've successfully gotten him to go from the position of "Global warming is a liberal conspiracy" to "Climate change is a real and serious issue, but I'm not 100% on the evidence for it being man-made". This has been really hard work over a period of about a year, but it's worth it. I'm not done, but this is how it's gone so far. Any time he expresses his opinion about this, I'll express that I disagree. This usually leads to some anger on his part because people tend to get their opinions wrapped up in their identity and take disagreement as a personal attack. I 'll point that out if things get too heated. Instead of just saying "no" or "you're wrong", I'll say something like, "well let's find out. I could be wrong." A lot of times, he won't believe the research I pull up, or pull up a denier website. I go through the denier websites and investigate claims point by point. For example, quotes from people who have since changed their mind, cherry picked lines from studies, things like that. Most of the time, it didn't seem like there was any progress made that session, but the next time it came up, his opinion would be a little more nuanced, or his opinion would move a little away from the conspiracy.

It's slow, gradual work, but we are both more educated on many issues because of this. I feel the important thing is to treat their opinion as valid. Often when you investigate why people believe irrational things, you find that they believe them for rational reasons. People they respect believe that, they have personal experience that runs counter to the research, they distrust the source of the claim.

If you don't understand why someone believes something, you can't change their mind about it.

/rant

Sorry for the wall of text, this is something I deal with all the time. tl;dr: Change people's minds one person, one opinion at a time. Be patient and open minded. Research it with them, and make sure you are cooperating, not verbally fighting for dominance. Changing someone's mind is an incremental process. Emphasize being open minded and doing research instead of advocating "not believing crazy things".

Re: How to Deal with Populism

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. Maybe give some examples?

Yes, the author completely misses the core issue: when the populace at large gets tired of getting hammered with elitist & special-interest issues, to the point of being told to actively facilitate what is broadly considered distasteful, they start looking for someone who will restore the mundane norms they are comfortable with. The following is a list of US populist complaints, which Trump successfully addressed. (D…

>"most people aren't [facilitating/celbrating LGBQT], and find differing sexualities repulsive"

I believe most people in the US are accepting of homosexuality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societal_attitudes_toward_homo...

Re: How to Deal with Populism

#83
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also a human rights issue from the populist side. Self determination--the right of groups of people to choose the structure of their society--is also a human right. Society is a very intimate thing. It's a group of people consenting to share each others' burdens as well as rewards; it's a group of people giving up individual autonomy and consenting to be governed by the will of the group. Immigration without con…

So that makes it OK when we, as a group, decide that brown people don't deserve to live happy healthy lives because they are taking our jobs.

It's not a judgment on what people deserve, but on what you are willing to give up to help them. School children in Africa don't deserve to go hungry, but tons of people on HN are still going to buy a shiny new MacBook Pro this year instead of using that money to feed dozens of kids in the developing world for a year.[1]

The fact that restricting immigration is a group choice while not donating money is an individual choice changes nothing about the morality. Either way, you're choosing to increase your own standard of living instead of helping someone who is already much worse off than yourself.

The cynic in me thinks the real difference is who pays. Educated people living on the coasts bear the same costs as less educated people in border areas when it comes to food donations, but bear a small fraction of the costs when it comes to increased immigration. That makes it easier for them to support the latter in comparison to committing to the former.

[1] http://www.uniteforsight.org/hunger/module3.

Re: How to Deal with Populism

#84
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I refer people to my previous comments on the politics of immigration, where people pretty much admit that it's not about immigration status (which you can't see) but ethnicity (which you can). https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13470571 There are real economic problems, and the press have been quite effective at blaming them on immigration when really they're more due to inequality. > Trump succeeds and does a goo…

Having joined in that discussion where it became clear that you didn't even know the meaning of the word immigrant, you didn't listen to what we said and now you're projecting your own prejudices on other people. And falling back on calling everyone a racist again. Which is precisely what this article says doesn't work.

The point of that discussion was that everyone had plenty of opportunity to say what exactly the problem was with immigrants, other than that they have a different ethnicity and language. They didn't.

Re: How to Deal with Populism

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because populism leads very quicky to dark places. Most all systems of government, of vested authority and state monopoly of violence, are to address our instinct towards populism. Egging on the mob never ends well.

You're only labeling it "populism" (which is normally defined as 'support for the concerns of ordinary people') because you don't like the outcome. If you liked the outcome you would call it "democratic." Somehow the idea of being concerned about the outcome for ordinary people has become vilified by American liberals because red state, blue collar, ordinary people are worthless. What is going on?! Trump wants to be…

Populism is, in a political culture, the appeal to the popular regardless of other interests. It is about simplistic concepts easily chanted, divorced from complex realities. It is about doing what the people say they want regarless of how idiotic that may be, regardless of the fact they probably dont want the thing in the long run. By way if example, tieing NAFTA negotiations to whichever country wins the Stanly Cup would be popular, but it isnt sound leadership. Eliminating the IRS is popular, but no rational person would do it. (Either of those wouldnt shock me if tweeted.)

Re: How to Deal with Populism

#86
post #6

How about addressing the widespread concerns that cause "populism" even if it means setting back your own ulterior agenda? Brexit and immigration is a good example of this. Blair decided mass immigration was a good idea for a number of reasons. At some point they surely realised that although it would provide an economic boost, some people would lose out financially and most did not want significant cultural change i…

The embedded powers will be very happy if Trump succeeds. Fewer regulations will mean freer movement of capital, which has historically been a great boon for the wealthy and powerful. If he manages to double down on coal production, the ensuing government subsidies will benefit those with the resources to capitalize on the undermining of the market (after all, any time you introduce predictability into the market, yo…

The embedded powers will be happy if Trump succeeds? The same "embedded powers" who tried to block him from even running on the GOP ticket? Whom he then had to threaten to run independent to let him into the primaries? The same embedded powers who've been attacking him from both sides of the media (left and right) since he announced he would run?

I have no idea how you people come to these conclusions. I mean, if I watched more mainstream media and believed everything I was told, I suppose I can see how you would come to these sorts of conclusions. I can assure you they are wrong. I mean the CIA is against Trump and is trying to de-legitimize his election after the fact. Are those the "embedded powers" who will be happy if he succeeds? Who are you even talking about? The only ones on Trumps side are probably half the GOP, and the people, that's it, everybody else is against him.

Re: How to Deal with Populism

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the author completely misses the core issue: when the populace at large gets tired of getting hammered with elitist & special-interest issues, to the point of being told to actively facilitate what is broadly considered distasteful, they start looking for someone who will restore the mundane norms they are comfortable with. The following is a list of US populist complaints, which Trump successfully addressed. (D…

>"most people aren't [facilitating/celbrating LGBQT], and find differing sexualities repulsive" I believe most people in the US are accepting of homosexuality. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societal_attitudes_toward_homo...

I think that the point is though that for all of those things listed, even if a majority find it repulsive, there were enough who agreed with Trump to get him elected.

Re: How to Deal with Populism

#88
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the real underlying issue is unemployment/underemployment" Why is a country that as high unemployment allowing high levels of immigration? Being mad about that seems highly rational to me

Why aren't citizens doing the jobs that immigrants do? That's a more rational question. Hiring immigrants isn't necessarily cheaper or easier. It's something employers do because they can't fill those jobs otherwise.

Immigrants are paid less, work harder to stay here, cannot switch jobs due to H1B visa laws, are happy to be here at all.

Re: How to Deal with Populism

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree completely with your premise but I don't think you've identified the real issue with immigration and brexit - the real underlying issue is unemployment/underemployment, fallout from the financial crisis, near 0% interest rates etc all combining to leave the poor with next to nothing. Then they see immigrants arriving around the same time all this is happening and assign the blame to them.

"the real underlying issue is unemployment/underemployment" Why is a country that as high unemployment allowing high levels of immigration? Being mad about that seems highly rational to me

Why would people want to immigrate to a country where they can't find work? The answer is that they can find work.

Why can they find work if unemployment is high? I see a few possible answers: 1. Unemployment isn't actually high, 2. Employers are illegally paying immigrants below minimum wage knowing they have no legal recourse, or 3. They are taking jobs that those here are unwilling to take.

How does a crackdown on illegal immigration speak to any of this?

Re: How to Deal with Populism

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The embedded powers will be very happy if Trump succeeds. Fewer regulations will mean freer movement of capital, which has historically been a great boon for the wealthy and powerful. If he manages to double down on coal production, the ensuing government subsidies will benefit those with the resources to capitalize on the undermining of the market (after all, any time you introduce predictability into the market, yo…

The embedded powers will be happy if Trump succeeds? The same "embedded powers" who tried to block him from even running on the GOP ticket? Whom he then had to threaten to run independent to let him into the primaries? The same embedded powers who've been attacking him from both sides of the media (left and right) since he announced he would run? I have no idea how you people come to these conclusions. I mean, if I w…

I'm not sure I would fit in your definition of "you people" if you got to know me, but who knows :). The key is to not believe anyone in particular and look to how patterns have unfolded throughout history. There are few examples of people using Trump's tactics who have achieved good for their constituency. As Dear Abby or Ann Landers would remind us, people don't change nearly as much as you want them too, so if someone spends their life working for a particular set of interests and gains power by promising to look after a new set, I will believe their actions more than their words. And as an engineer, when someone posits simple solutions to complex problems, I will look to them to provide rigorous evidence to support their policies.
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