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How to Deal with Populism

caracaschronicles.com

61–70 of 95 posts

Re: How to Deal with Populism

#61

While it's true that you can reach out and have a meal, share a laugh, with a Trump supporter, I don't think that will do anything lasting or good. Trump supporters are, in my personal experience, willfully ignorant. They make general statements (particularly about the poor state of the US and Obama's failure) and cannot back them up with supporting facts. They get indignant and threatened when asked for facts. They…

There is the matter that, even if these Trump supporters provided facts you wouldn't believe those facts anyway. You would attribute the facts they provided to different causes and interpret them in your own way to suit your world view. It's really a waste of time talking to each other. I've spent plenty of time arguing with people on the left. Facts and figures and citations stored on my phone (TO SHOW PEOPLE IRL) and all for nothing. Complete waste of time. The only thing that made a difference was arguing with a liberal friend about diversity. I was able to point out that he lives in the whitest building in the whitest part of the city. So harping on about diversity is hypocritical because when he had time to put his money where his mouth is he did the opposite (he is white). That was the only thing that even made him pause to think for a second. In my experience, no amount of facts, no amount of well meaning discussion has any point. Nobody on the left will agree with you, they won't see your point, they willfully choose to misunderstand your points, they misrepresent your arguments when they repeat them back to you. It is a futile waste of time to talk to each other. The issue will eventually be decided the way all such fundamental irreconcilable disagreements are decided, might will make right in the end.

Re: How to Deal with Populism

#62
post #5

Populism was dealt with by way of the electoral college.

Huge point. Beyond the electoral college, the founders of the US had many mechanisms to prevent this kind of thing, but we've degraded them in favor of the idea that everyone's voice counts equally. Senators used to be appointed. Party candidates used to be selected by party officials, not the public. This last one in particular would have prevented a Trump presidency. Andrew Sullivan explains all this very well here…

I would counter it with facts that the weakening of the democratic process has been done by elected officials.

Electoral college rules in fact subtly break democracy even now. Wanted to vote, say, Bernie Sanders? Tough luck.

Re: How to Deal with Populism

#63
post #6

How about addressing the widespread concerns that cause "populism" even if it means setting back your own ulterior agenda? Brexit and immigration is a good example of this. Blair decided mass immigration was a good idea for a number of reasons. At some point they surely realised that although it would provide an economic boost, some people would lose out financially and most did not want significant cultural change i…

Trump won due to resentment in Rust Belt states, where manufacturing jobs have declined. But immigration isn't the cause of those job losses. Automation has cost far more jobs.

A connection is seen between outsourcing and free trade deals, and that's a much better target. Now, it's arguable that free trade deals are economically beneficial, but they look bad. Trump gets that, and Democrats fell down in that regard.

But the anti-immigration scapegoating? That's not causality, that's scapegoating. Immigration is not the cause of the woes of the Rust Belt, but it gives them something to blame, and a populist leader can exploit that.

Re: How to Deal with Populism

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree completely with your premise but I don't think you've identified the real issue with immigration and brexit - the real underlying issue is unemployment/underemployment, fallout from the financial crisis, near 0% interest rates etc all combining to leave the poor with next to nothing. Then they see immigrants arriving around the same time all this is happening and assign the blame to them.

"the real underlying issue is unemployment/underemployment" Why is a country that as high unemployment allowing high levels of immigration? Being mad about that seems highly rational to me

Why aren't citizens doing the jobs that immigrants do? That's a more rational question.

Hiring immigrants isn't necessarily cheaper or easier. It's something employers do because they can't fill those jobs otherwise.

Re: How to Deal with Populism

#65

While it's true that you can reach out and have a meal, share a laugh, with a Trump supporter, I don't think that will do anything lasting or good. Trump supporters are, in my personal experience, willfully ignorant. They make general statements (particularly about the poor state of the US and Obama's failure) and cannot back them up with supporting facts. They get indignant and threatened when asked for facts. They…

Is this post satire?

Your prescription for solving the problem is more or less identical to what Trump has stated he plans to do with respect to trade with China.

Re: How to Deal with Populism

#66
post #6

How about addressing the widespread concerns that cause "populism" even if it means setting back your own ulterior agenda? Brexit and immigration is a good example of this. Blair decided mass immigration was a good idea for a number of reasons. At some point they surely realised that although it would provide an economic boost, some people would lose out financially and most did not want significant cultural change i…

Immigration is a great example to pick of technocrat vs populist. Left technocrats see immigration as a human rights issue. Freedom of movement is a well-recognized fundamental human right; your ability to move from Gloucester to London is enshrined in Britain's unwritten constitution. Left technocrats do not see the movement from Paris to London to be any different than the movement from Gloucester to London. Right…

Immigration from Paris to London isn't a political problem, though. Immigration from Aleppo to London is.

Re: How to Deal with Populism

#67
post #3

As someone who knows a lot of trump supporters and trump haters, this is what people who are afraid of trump need to recognize. I've seen the advice from this article work first hand, and I've seen people who don't understand what the author is talking about make situations worse first hand.

Interesting. Maybe give some examples?

Yes, the author completely misses the core issue: when the populace at large gets tired of getting hammered with elitist & special-interest issues, to the point of being told to actively facilitate what is broadly considered distasteful, they start looking for someone who will restore the mundane norms they are comfortable with.

The following is a list of US populist complaints, which Trump successfully addressed. (Don't up/down-vote based on whether you agree or not with the issues of the list, which I may or may not, just note that the points are important to enough people to vote a Trump into office.) In no particular order...

Facilitation/celebration of LGBQT (most people aren't, and find differing sexualities repulsive). Demands for "safe spaces" while eliminating the only long socially established safe spaces: sexually segregated restrooms. Taking taxpayer earnings and spending them on advocacy of opposing views. Reducing a sense of safety vs crime, while seemingly protecting criminals (this issue dominated by the US "gun culture"). Laying blame/responsibility for environmental issues on those thinking themselves not guilty (say, global warming). Stifling parental preferences in education (Common Core, lack of school vouchers, absolute intolerance of anything hinting of Christianity). Broad/unrelenting accusations of whites & males as invariably & irredeemably sexist/misogynist/xenophobic/racist/etc (say, Hillary's declaration of 1/4 of Americans as "deplorables"). Incredible growth of national debt ($10,000,000,000,000 in last 8 years, doubling all previous debt) with prospect of populace having to pay it. Lack of jobs (need for jobs has far outstripped creation of jobs). Overwhelming regulations, making compliance & cost untenable. Abortion being considered, on the whole, inexcusable murder of children.

Understand that classic US culture is deeply rooted in individual liberty & rights. Basically, taking someone's money to make them pay for something they don't want angers them; they'll put up with a lot, but once "enough!" hits they're prone to taking dramatic steps to end the offense. Also note that the USA is huge, having a broad range of views from coast to coast; what Hillary offered was "coastal" culture, while Trump appealed to "heartland", and with the Electoral College deliberately biasing Presidential elections toward populist views, the large number of central states won the vote.

Re: How to Deal with Populism

#68

Your organizing principle is simple: don’t feed polarization, disarm it. This is so important. Samantha Bee can't stop making piss jokes about Trump. That's not going to win anyone over. Nina Donovan's poem, recited by Ashley Judd at the Women's March, is brave and powerful. It is also polarizing. There is a line: "I’m not as nasty as a man who looks like he bathes in Cheeto dust." That's not going to win anyone over…

I absolutely agree. Your point about Samantha Bee reminds me of a podcast that Malcolm Gladwell did recently about satire. In it he criticized SNL's portrayal of Sarah Palin back in 2008. Tina Fay's impression of her was funny as hell, but it mostly made fun of the way Palin talks and her attitude. If you already dislike Palin (as I do/did) it seems like cutting criticism.

But the problem is that her mannerisms aren't really whats bad about her. And Trump's alleged kinks aren't whats bad about him. Its easy for his supporters to defend him and say that either it is not true, because there isn't any public evidence that it is, or that there is nothing wrong with a piss fetish. And they are right. There is nothing wrong with it.

Heres the podcast in case anyone is interested: http://revisionisthistory.com/episodes/10-the-satire-paradox

Re: How to Deal with Populism

#69
Feels like shallow reasoning to me to be honest. What can the author say about problem with 2nd/3rd generation of young immigrants' kids/large ghettos in Paris? Is it fictional problem? Probably not as my Parisian friends are saying and you can see burning cars from time to time. Police no-go zone seems to me like reasonable issue to be worried about. The problem imho is that the issue is not so close in time, but a bit further, 2+ generations (40y) from now. Similar to Rio de Janeiro favelas who is there to blame for all of the massive mess? Children don't choose where they want to be born. First immigrants are seniors/not here anymore. Politicians rotated dozen times.

In general I think that mass relocations of any kind for any reason are bad and should be throttled to sustainable throughput. This way churches, schools, hospitals and what not can keep up.

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