Nicotine Normalizes Brain Activity Deficits That Are Key to Schizophrenia • Hacker News Board

Re: Nicotine Normalizes Brain Activity Deficits That Are Key to Schizophrenia

#161

Post by UweSchmidt » Tue, Jan 24, 2017, 1:01 AM UTC

beambot wrote: post #92

anigbrowl wrote: post #48

“This defines a completely novel strategy for medication development,” says lead author As someone with schizoaffective problems and raging ADHD, I find quotes like this acutely annoying. I've told every psychiatrist I'eve ever dealt with about the experiential costs/benefits of smoking (and consuming various other recreational drugs). They all nod sagely and say things like 'but smoking is bad' (no shit Sherlock!) w…

Your psychiatrist runs a practice and you're mad that they are practicing rather than researching ? That seems like an unrealistic expectation. If your doc was doing more research, then they probably wouldn't be practicing as much. It's like asking you to be a professional developer and do cutting edge CS research -- that's pretty rare. Tracking nicotine vs your mood strikes me as being "research" -- especially since…

A doctor should be quite curious about a something that might alleviate a common and serious ailment. Other things to do might be having a look in recent literature if 'nicotine' and 'schizophrenia' show up in the same paper, ping a colleague in research, or alternatively, explain the error of OP's reasoning in simple terms.

More fundamentally, an educated person should be able to have two different ideas in their head at the same time without having to suppress or reject one or the other:

a) nicotine is unhealthy

b) nicotine can be a cure

Re: Nicotine Normalizes Brain Activity Deficits That Are Key to Schizophrenia

#162

Post by agentgt » Tue, Jan 24, 2017, 1:02 AM UTC

jayd16 wrote: post #154

agentgt wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never been addicted to cigarettes and do not smoke but I do chew nicotine gum all the time for ADD (and yes there is a difference between ADHD and ADD). I took me a while to figure out that nicotine is a superior stimulant over caffeine, adderall, ritalin and even chocolate extract (albeit chocolate was surprisingly effective). The big plus with nicotine is that it doesn't have the after downer that the above…

>The big plus with nicotine is that it doesn't have the after downer that the above stimulants have. What do you mean by this? Caffeine withdrawal over nicotine withdrawal seems like a no brainer to me with what I've seen from smokers, but I don't smoke so I can't say first hand.

As another commenter alluded to I was referring to the crash or hangover.

As for withdrawal I don't think I have ever felt it with nicotine but it might be because I just don't ever do enough (the most pieces of gum I have had in one day is 40mg of nicotine.. ie 10 pieces). I have had a nicotine hangover with cigars but this is usually because alcohol is involved as well as I believe cigars lower intake of oxygen (just a theory.. probably wrong).

Caffeine withdrawal is awful.. absolutely awful for me. Headaches for days. I usually give up and pound 4 ibuprofen with a large cup of coffee.

Re: Nicotine Normalizes Brain Activity Deficits That Are Key to Schizophrenia

#163

Post by HeavenBanned » Tue, Jan 24, 2017, 1:02 AM UTC

tomcam wrote: post #64

anigbrowl wrote: post #48

“This defines a completely novel strategy for medication development,” says lead author As someone with schizoaffective problems and raging ADHD, I find quotes like this acutely annoying. I've told every psychiatrist I'eve ever dealt with about the experiential costs/benefits of smoking (and consuming various other recreational drugs). They all nod sagely and say things like 'but smoking is bad' (no shit Sherlock!) w…

Fascinating story. Sorry it has become tougher since quitting--a near Sophie's Choice predicament. I find M.D.'s to be alarmingly low in intellectual curiosity.

What else do you expect when the vast majority of a medical curriculum is based off of rote memorization with little to no critical thinking?

Undergrad:

Memorize bio terms

Memorize chem structures

Memorize organic chem structures

Then in med school:

Memorize biochem terms

Memorize anatomy

Memorize pathology

Memorize medications

Memorize histology

Memorize more anatomy this time in sections

Then in residency:

Memorize my teacher's conception of, say, Anesthesiology

Memorize the attending's heuristics of Anesthesiology

Memorize more techniques of Anesthesiology to lessen risk

And so on and so forth, practicing until one dies...

Where in all this is an opportunity to reflect and critically think?

It seems, to me, that Doctors are glorified algorithmic machines and will probably be replaced by machines in the next century or two given their process of diagnosis can and will be programmatically designed. If not that, the bulk of the process will be facilitated by machines, with Doctors doing what amounts to clerical work. I am obviously speculating, but my hunch is that with such an emphasis on memorization (and processing of it)...the only thing we have to tackle is the process component as any medical-AI could theoretically record every medical case presented in history and provide a high-accuracy diagnosis rate.

In fact, I think there are some machines that have already beaten fully-trained Cardiologists in determining risk for a Stroke, so ...we're not there yet, but it's certainly possible.

Re: Nicotine Normalizes Brain Activity Deficits That Are Key to Schizophrenia

#164

Post by function_seven » Tue, Jan 24, 2017, 1:02 AM UTC

chillwaves wrote: post #152

SparkyMcUnicorn wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can vape with no nicotine at all, or you can vape from 0.1mg/ml all the way past 50mg/ml if you wanted to. "Vaping is much more addictive" is like saying sugar is more addicting from a glass of chocolate milk than than it is from a bag of gummy worms. And I'd say 95% healthier is a pretty good margin.

You should understand that different drug delivery methods will have different impacts on a drug's half life and effect (intensity) on your body. Inhaling is more powerful than taking orally. Shooting up is more powerful than inhaling.

Inhaling cigarette smoke is an almost instant intake of nicotine. Vaping it is not nearly so. It’s still an open question as to why, but the current thought is because the atomized liquid droplets are much, much larger than the smoke particulates that come from burning tobacco. The atomized liquid doesn’t make it into the alveoli where it directly enters the bloodstream. Instead, the vapor coats the bronchial and nasal passages and is slowly absorbed that way.

There’s still debate as to whether the bulk of the nicotine is even absorbed in the lungs vs. deposited vapor in the nasal and oral mucosa. But whatever the route, vaping is significantly slower than smoking—something that a lot of “switchers” don’t appreciate. (They don’t get the instant gratification that they did when taking that first drag off of a cigarette.)

I don’t mean to refute your point. The hierarchy of drug intake is legitimate. But vaping is more like “inhalation*” with an asterisk. Maybe faster than a lozenge or patch, but definitely slower than smoking it.

Re: Nicotine Normalizes Brain Activity Deficits That Are Key to Schizophrenia

#165

Post by bkanber » Tue, Jan 24, 2017, 1:05 AM UTC

tomcam wrote: post #69

_m8fo wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just get more, higher quality sleep? It provides all of the upsides that you mention with no downsides.

Not parent, but nothing I have tried improves my sleep. Baseline is just bad. Exercise, meditation, alarms – nothing works. The only thing that raised the baseline was quitting caffeine.

Have you tried reducing carb intake? Particularly in the later part of the day. I've gone "keto" 3 times for about 6 months each, and my sleep is always excellent during those periods. When I looked into it I found that elevated insulin levels throughout the night can disrupt sleep.

Re: Nicotine Normalizes Brain Activity Deficits That Are Key to Schizophrenia

#166

Post by nickysielicki » Tue, Jan 24, 2017, 1:09 AM UTC

snoman wrote: post #133

nickysielicki wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even more dangerous when you consider this paper. [1] In particular, see point two, "Psychology is less politically diverse than ever". Academic psychology seems to lean Democrat by a ratio of 14:1! Fourteen to one! That kind of bias is ridiculous when you consider the power they have over their patients and the politically-infused repercussions of their diagnosis. Case in point: gun ownership. [1]: http://heterodoxa…

That site, the linked paper, the vague 'membership' definition, is complete trash.

> complete trash

That's not constructive at all. This kind of response is against HN guidelines.

This group/site entirely consists of university professors, all of whom are named on the site [1]. The basis for post I linked to was a paper that was published in Cambridge's Behavioral and Brain Sciences journal [2], and was written by one of the authors.

You're entitled to disagree with it, but the burden of proof is on you.

[1]: http://heterodoxacademy.org/about-us/

[2]: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/behavioral-and-brain...

Re: Nicotine Normalizes Brain Activity Deficits That Are Key to Schizophrenia

#167

Post by beambot » Tue, Jan 24, 2017, 1:11 AM UTC

UweSchmidt wrote: post #161

beambot wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your psychiatrist runs a practice and you're mad that they are practicing rather than researching ? That seems like an unrealistic expectation. If your doc was doing more research, then they probably wouldn't be practicing as much. It's like asking you to be a professional developer and do cutting edge CS research -- that's pretty rare. Tracking nicotine vs your mood strikes me as being "research" -- especially since…

A doctor should be quite curious about a something that might alleviate a common and serious ailment. Other things to do might be having a look in recent literature if 'nicotine' and 'schizophrenia' show up in the same paper, ping a colleague in research, or alternatively, explain the error of OP's reasoning in simple terms. More fundamentally, an educated person should be able to have two different ideas in their he…

So... bear with me: Patient comes in and says "I noticed that nicotine helps with my symptoms." Doctor does some searches & reading and sees no results (because this study hadn't been published yet). Doctor tells patient, "There is no published, scientific evidence between nicotine use and treatment of schizophrenia. But there is evidence that smoking is bad."

That seems perfectly reasonable for a practicing doctor before this study was published. How can you be mad at that?! Do you thoroughly research every correlation you encounter in your field of expertise when you have other clients & projects to address?

(It seems reasonable to me.)

Re: Nicotine Normalizes Brain Activity Deficits That Are Key to Schizophrenia

#168

Post by agentgt » Tue, Jan 24, 2017, 1:12 AM UTC

rtpg wrote: post #158

agentgt wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never been addicted to cigarettes and do not smoke but I do chew nicotine gum all the time for ADD (and yes there is a difference between ADHD and ADD). I took me a while to figure out that nicotine is a superior stimulant over caffeine, adderall, ritalin and even chocolate extract (albeit chocolate was surprisingly effective). The big plus with nicotine is that it doesn't have the after downer that the above…

As another ADD-diagnosed person, my understanding is the current consensus is that ADD is simply a different manifestation of ADHD. That is to say, same underlying root cause, so treatment can be similar. Didn't know about the nicotine angle though, kind of interested in the research on this.

Yes that is correct. The only reason why I sort of take issue with it is being grouped with people that are bouncing of the wall.

That is during elementary school I was grouped with kids that had ADD/ADHD for some counselors/teachers/doctors to learn about us. There was clearly two groups. The kids like me (ADD) staring at the ceiling fans, flowers, whatever and the other kids (ADHD) who were running around trying to tear apart the fans, flowers and whatever.

The problem with getting the label of ADHD is that all of the sudden people suddenly think they observe hyperactive behavior with you. That is they associate hyperactivity with you. So anytime you express an idea excitedly or thoughts come quickly and you are trying to express them to some one (which is challenging particularly if you are an introvert) people call it hyperactive behavior.... the same word for behavior such as running around punching kids, tearing shit up and acting like a 2 year old. Hopefully you understand why I don't like the association even it if is academically correct.

Re: Nicotine Normalizes Brain Activity Deficits That Are Key to Schizophrenia

#169

Post by pyre » Tue, Jan 24, 2017, 1:13 AM UTC

DanielleMolloy wrote: post #129

zeta0134 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing that finally worked for me was blackout curtains in my room. I didn't realize just how much the incoming light from outside my window was affecting my sleep. In pitch black darkness, I'm out like a light and have the deepest sleep imaginable. (It's so effective that I have to set an alarm to wake myself up, otherwise I'll stay asleep for 10-12 hours) I'm able to replicate this somewhat using a sleeping mask…

I grew up in a house that had the massively thick kind of exterior blinds everywhere, the ones that really make your room pitch dark ("Außenrolläden" in my native language). After moving out from my parent's house I have lived in several places, but often in older buildings without decent blinds. I didn't realize the influence this may have had on me before a temporary room mate pointed out that the room is far too b…

Light hitting the skin also affects melatonin levels, so just using a sleeping mask isn't a full solution.

Re: Nicotine Normalizes Brain Activity Deficits That Are Key to Schizophrenia

#170

Post by DrScump » Tue, Jan 24, 2017, 1:14 AM UTC

agentgt wrote: post #140

sova wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for sharing your experience. As a substance nerd I find all this info very helpful and illuminating. Are you familiar with Erowid?

I tried a bunch of supplements and herbs. Some worked, some had nasty side effects, and most did squat. The short list is I tried: Piractem, GABA, Rhodila Rosea, Cocamine (chocolate extract), gluractone (red bull ingredient), various ephedrine like stuff, various methly caffeine things (ie green tea), Yohimbine (I highly recommend you never ever take this). I used to have lab like jars of the stuff at work and my cow…

  do not take Yohimbine

Did you take actual, pharmaceutical-grade Yohimbine HCl, or an herbal? Actual, unrefined Yohimbe has other alkaloids that have adverse effects, and it oxidizes quickly.