Why we should all have a basic income • Hacker News Board

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#381

Post by 3131s » Mon, Jan 23, 2017, 1:05 AM UTC

mixedCase wrote: post #346

barnacs wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe basic human nature includes curiosity. Living in a society means one will naturally seek the appreciation, acceptance and respect of their peers. I think these alone will eventually lead most people to contribute something useful to our world one way or another. Mentally and/or physically exhausted after a long day of performing a meaningless job, or unable to get one and living off welfare, despised by the…

>I believe basic human nature includes curiosity. Living in a society means one will naturally seek the appreciation, acceptance and respect of their peers. I think these alone will eventually lead most people to contribute something useful to our world one way or another. As someone living in a small third world welfare state, I can't help but laugh at the naiveté that can lead someone to believe something like that…

Mind sharing where you live?

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#382

Post by wolfgke » Mon, Jan 23, 2017, 1:08 AM UTC

smallnamespace wrote: post #370

wolfgke wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Street promoters make me sad. If they can find no job they better stay at home and learn something new, but they have no time for it, so they are stuck doing useless, maybe even harmful, work. If these people really have such a large earning potential if they were just learning something new, why not let coworkers get together and finance a fund: The worker (let's call him John Doe) will get his existing income for…

These contracts are really hard to enforce, and is essentially selling equity in yourself. If you sell 100% of your own equity, that'd be pretty much slavery right? Some people (maybe justifiably) feel very uncomfortable with the idea of selling their own future equity. For one thing, it reduces the incentives for someone to work hard. Yale did something like this in the 70s and finally killed it because of issues wi…

> For one thing, it reduces the incentives for someone to work hard.

If you work harder, you will still have more money - that's what % is about.

> Some people (maybe justifiably) feel very uncomfortable with the idea of selling their own future equity.

If they have a problem with that, then they should negate something like "40% for every gross dollar over 1000 per month". You are

> Also it felt really unfair to high wage earners that they were sometimes paying multiples of what their tuition originally was.

That's why I wrote "coworkers", so that it is not a "poor workers against big bank" scheme but "poor workers invest in one of their peer" - this is a lot more at eye level. If the coworkers agree to less - fine. If you are more on the social side: Why not simply invest the, say, 40% into financing the education of the next "poor worker"?

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#383

Post by eli_gottlieb » Mon, Jan 23, 2017, 1:08 AM UTC

mixedCase wrote: post #346

barnacs wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe basic human nature includes curiosity. Living in a society means one will naturally seek the appreciation, acceptance and respect of their peers. I think these alone will eventually lead most people to contribute something useful to our world one way or another. Mentally and/or physically exhausted after a long day of performing a meaningless job, or unable to get one and living off welfare, despised by the…

>I believe basic human nature includes curiosity. Living in a society means one will naturally seek the appreciation, acceptance and respect of their peers. I think these alone will eventually lead most people to contribute something useful to our world one way or another. As someone living in a small third world welfare state, I can't help but laugh at the naiveté that can lead someone to believe something like that…

>In here, and I don't believe the rest of the world can be that much different, the overwhelming majority of people with their basic needs covered by the state dedicate themselves to a routine of TV, social media and other social rituals of all kinds, all devoid of intellectual pursuit.

So what? Why is the purpose of other people's lives to serve your idea of nobility?

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#384

Post by prostoalex » Mon, Jan 23, 2017, 1:12 AM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #371

prostoalex wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no practical limit to housing density when you can build vertically. Why not? Higher structures require deeper and more complex foundations, more reinforced concrete and steel, extra precautions for strong winds and earthquakes. Setting up proper elevator systems, plumbing, air venting, noise isolation, electrical wiring and natural gas hookups is also subject to more restrictive building code (and for a g…

> Higher structures require deeper and more complex foundations, more reinforced concrete and steel, extra precautions for strong winds and earthquakes. Setting up proper elevator systems, plumbing, air venting, noise isolation, electrical wiring and natural gas hookups is also subject to more restrictive building code (and for a good reason). This is before we get into the costs of underground/overground parking, wh…

We can take turns naming even more expensive high rises, but the goal is to show that increase in high rises leads to drastic overall decrease in cost of living. Manhattan, in theory, should be dirt cheap as far as $/sq.ft. due to massive supply, and it's not. Neither is Singapore or Shanghai. There's a natural price floor for such buildings, and it's not yet competitive with pricing on cheaper options, such as suburban detached, suburban attached or mobile homes.

Pending a discovery of cheaper construction materials or methods we probably won't see massively cheaper high rises.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#385

Post by eli_gottlieb » Mon, Jan 23, 2017, 1:12 AM UTC

sean_patel wrote: post #217

dzink wrote: post #192

During Brexit, people in job-starved areas of UK were reported as resentful for receiving handouts. They wanted gainful employment and their dignity back. You could have corporations foot the bill for basic income and people with certain values would still not want it. The image of being a breadwinner is so deeply instilled in some people that for them not being that, triggers mid-life-crisis: a depression, sense of…

I couldn't get past the 1st line > Consider for a moment that from this day forward, on the first day of every month, around $1,000 is deposited into your bank account – because you are a citizen. If implemented, it will surely be a disaster in America (DOA - Dead on Arrival), considering how well African Americans have worked and abused the Food Stamps system. Let me tell you a story. I was getting my beat up Honda…

>If implemented, it will surely be a disaster in America (DOA - Dead on Arrival), considering how well African Americans have worked and abused the Food Stamps system.

KKK out of HN!

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#386

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jan 23, 2017, 1:16 AM UTC

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #383

mixedCase wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I believe basic human nature includes curiosity. Living in a society means one will naturally seek the appreciation, acceptance and respect of their peers. I think these alone will eventually lead most people to contribute something useful to our world one way or another. As someone living in a small third world welfare state, I can't help but laugh at the naiveté that can lead someone to believe something like that…

>In here, and I don't believe the rest of the world can be that much different, the overwhelming majority of people with their basic needs covered by the state dedicate themselves to a routine of TV, social media and other social rituals of all kinds, all devoid of intellectual pursuit. So what? Why is the purpose of other people's lives to serve your idea of nobility?

[deleted]

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#387

Post by woofyman » Mon, Jan 23, 2017, 1:19 AM UTC

jakeogh wrote: post #304

prodmerc wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glad you are and always will be a millionaire who doesn't use any public services and will never need to worry about hospital bills, housing or food. Otherwise you're an idiot.

You know we had hospitals, housing assistance and food assistance before the personal income tax right? A personal income tax is just one way we fund gov services, there are plenty of other options that don't require a gun to the head. Alaska, Florida, Nevada, South Dakota, Texas, Washington, and Wyoming have no state level personal income tax.

Alaska and Texas have oil. Florida has tourists. Wyoming has coal.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#388

Post by tim333 » Mon, Jan 23, 2017, 1:25 AM UTC

dzink wrote: post #192

During Brexit, people in job-starved areas of UK were reported as resentful for receiving handouts. They wanted gainful employment and their dignity back. You could have corporations foot the bill for basic income and people with certain values would still not want it. The image of being a breadwinner is so deeply instilled in some people that for them not being that, triggers mid-life-crisis: a depression, sense of…

Basic income could help get rid of people sitting around unemployed. Instead of small amounts of earned income being effective taxed at near 100% by loss of benefits they might be able to keep it all making low paying work worth doing.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#389

Post by n_ » Mon, Jan 23, 2017, 1:27 AM UTC

sean_patel wrote: post #217

dzink wrote: post #192

During Brexit, people in job-starved areas of UK were reported as resentful for receiving handouts. They wanted gainful employment and their dignity back. You could have corporations foot the bill for basic income and people with certain values would still not want it. The image of being a breadwinner is so deeply instilled in some people that for them not being that, triggers mid-life-crisis: a depression, sense of…

I couldn't get past the 1st line > Consider for a moment that from this day forward, on the first day of every month, around $1,000 is deposited into your bank account – because you are a citizen. If implemented, it will surely be a disaster in America (DOA - Dead on Arrival), considering how well African Americans have worked and abused the Food Stamps system. Let me tell you a story. I was getting my beat up Honda…

This is the worst comment I've ever read on HN.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#390

Post by smallnamespace » Mon, Jan 23, 2017, 1:30 AM UTC

wolfgke wrote: post #382

smallnamespace wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These contracts are really hard to enforce, and is essentially selling equity in yourself. If you sell 100% of your own equity, that'd be pretty much slavery right? Some people (maybe justifiably) feel very uncomfortable with the idea of selling their own future equity. For one thing, it reduces the incentives for someone to work hard. Yale did something like this in the 70s and finally killed it because of issues wi…

> For one thing, it reduces the incentives for someone to work hard. If you work harder, you will still have more money - that's what % is about. > Some people (maybe justifiably) feel very uncomfortable with the idea of selling their own future equity. If they have a problem with that, then they should negate something like "40% for every gross dollar over 1000 per month". You are > Also it felt really unfair to hig…

It's a matter of trust.

People in other societies do this all the time -- entire families in China, for example, will pay in invest in others' education or pay for them to emigrate to the US, with the understanding that if the person succeeds they will bring over other family members or send back money.

But do coworkers really know and trust each other so well to do this without enforcement mechanisms? Lawyers are extremely expensive, so while you theoretically have recourse to the law, in practice even drafting an airtight contract can easily cost tens of thousands of dollars.

Again there's two problems: cultural (I think to most Americans it's a blow to pride admitting they need help from others), and also enforcing 'percentage of paycheck' contracts is difficult. Just see how much trouble people have enforcing alimony or child support payments, even when the case is 100% legally clear.