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Why we should all have a basic income

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Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#301

Post by swift »

twblalock wrote: post #241
vectorpush wrote: post #108

Almost everyone here seems to be discussing the economic challenges of UBI, but so far I haven't seen much mention of the political challenges. UBI is a completely unworkable concept in the U.S.A and likely many European countries as well. American citizens will be literally shooting eachother in the streets before they accept such a massive wealth redistribution mechanism, and that resistance will be mostly made up…

Eve if the American people were willing to accept UBI, it still wouldn't work the way proponents hope it will. Let's assume for the sake of argument that the US Congress actually passed a UBI bill that was simple, elegant, and did not have a bunch of complicated amendments tacked onto it. Let's say they passed a bill stipulating that every person in the United States would get a check from the government every month,…

Are voters any less able to vote to give themselves more money now?

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#302

Post by stale2002 »

prodmerc wrote: post #296
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Prove me wrong. Ok here we go. > If everyone gets $1000 every month guaranteed for "basic needs", the prices for those basic needs will increase accordingly. And independently. So you'll end up spending that $1k on either housing, bills or food. They don't get $1000/month for "basic needs", they get $1000/month for whatever they want . It's completely unconditional. Which means people wouldn't go out and buy twice…

> Suddenly a million sick people are making insurance claims who previously had no insurance, what did you think was going to happen to premiums? This is what I mean. From a business point of view, suddenly everyone has an extra $1000. They were buying stuff from you until now, there's no reason not to try to drive the price up to see how much more you can charge now. If enough businesses will do that, it will reach…

This is incorrect.

For example, let's say someone starts with 0$, and is given 1k$.

Is this person better off than they were before? Yes! Their wealth has increased by infinity. It does not matter if inflation was 100%, because 100% is less than infinity.

Also, you can get rid of inflation, by taking the money way from someone else. You aren't adding money to the system. You are redistributing it.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#303

Post by twblalock »

swift wrote: post #301
twblalock wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eve if the American people were willing to accept UBI, it still wouldn't work the way proponents hope it will. Let's assume for the sake of argument that the US Congress actually passed a UBI bill that was simple, elegant, and did not have a bunch of complicated amendments tacked onto it. Let's say they passed a bill stipulating that every person in the United States would get a check from the government every month,…

Are voters any less able to vote to give themselves more money now?

Yes, far less able. Most voters aren't on welfare, and they aren't interested in increasing welfare payments. If every voter got money from the government, things would be very different.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#304

Post by jakeogh »

prodmerc wrote: post #298
jakeogh wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. Personal taxes (taking things via threat of force) are theft. It does not matter who is doing the taking.

Glad you are and always will be a millionaire who doesn't use any public services and will never need to worry about hospital bills, housing or food. Otherwise you're an idiot.

You know we had hospitals, housing assistance and food assistance before the personal income tax right? A personal income tax is just one way we fund gov services, there are plenty of other options that don't require a gun to the head.

Alaska, Florida, Nevada, South Dakota, Texas, Washington, and Wyoming have no state level personal income tax.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#305

Post by TheCoelacanth »

jakeogh wrote: post #117
anonfunction wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With that logic all taxes and social policies are theft.

Correct. Personal taxes (taking things via threat of force) are theft. It does not matter who is doing the taking.

You say taxation is theft. Anarchists say that the fact that you have any property that can be taxed is theft. This is a matter of opinion, not an indisputable fact.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#306

Post by stale2002 »

tomp wrote: post #148
tvelichkov wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> If you combine that with the decreased motivation of people to work (resulting in lower supply) You won't get lower supply because of the automation, because that's the reason you are giving basic income in the first place. John no longer needs to drive it's truck, the truck is gonna drive itself.

Then (presumably) costs will fall, stuff will get cheaper (free-ish?), UBI won't be needed.

Giving people money is redistribution.

We are spending less money on yachts and more money on food.

The Yacht factories get torn down, and replaced with food factories.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#307

Post by fantomix »

braveo wrote: post #237
TulliusCicero wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are absolutely people like you, and absolutely people who will just play WoW all day, every day. The question is, how many of each?

why does it matter? The point of UBI is to allow people to do what they want.

Oh yeah! I long for times when 100% of society can play WoW all day long and Blizzards alone will foot the bill for all of us :) Ultimate economic perpetum-mobile with an Orcs race in it! :-)

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#308

Post by Clubber »

dzink wrote: post #192

During Brexit, people in job-starved areas of UK were reported as resentful for receiving handouts. They wanted gainful employment and their dignity back. You could have corporations foot the bill for basic income and people with certain values would still not want it. The image of being a breadwinner is so deeply instilled in some people that for them not being that, triggers mid-life-crisis: a depression, sense of…

This is one of the main theories as to why Trump was successful in the US. The US economy can't properly support it's workforce fully. The Democrats offered social safety net. The Republicans offered tax cuts and deregulation to the business owners. Neither solved the underlying problem that the US economy can't properly support the workforce.

People want an honest day's pay for an honest day's work as they have for millennia. Pride in honest, good work is important to the vast majority of people, especially in the US.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#309

Post by AnthonyMouse »

prodmerc wrote: post #296
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Prove me wrong. Ok here we go. > If everyone gets $1000 every month guaranteed for "basic needs", the prices for those basic needs will increase accordingly. And independently. So you'll end up spending that $1k on either housing, bills or food. They don't get $1000/month for "basic needs", they get $1000/month for whatever they want . It's completely unconditional. Which means people wouldn't go out and buy twice…

> Suddenly a million sick people are making insurance claims who previously had no insurance, what did you think was going to happen to premiums? This is what I mean. From a business point of view, suddenly everyone has an extra $1000. They were buying stuff from you until now, there's no reason not to try to drive the price up to see how much more you can charge now. If enough businesses will do that, it will reach…

> From a business point of view, suddenly everyone has an extra $1000.

It's not "suddenly everyone has an extra $1000", it's "suddenly the average person with insurance is sicker". It's like what happens if you want to buy fire insurance in an area with a higher incidence of wildfires. The reason insurance costs more there isn't inflation.

> They were buying stuff from you until now, there's no reason not to try to drive the price up to see how much more you can charge now.

Except that you have competitors who are happy to take all your business by selling at the existing price which is already profitable.

> So if literally everyone has an extra $1000, nobody has an extra $1000.

If literally everyone has an extra $1000 then you must have printed the money, which isn't what anyone is proposing.

And even then is still not true, because printing $1000 for each person is still wealth redistribution from creditors to debtors.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#310

Post by Idontagree »

Clubber wrote: post #308
dzink wrote: post #192

During Brexit, people in job-starved areas of UK were reported as resentful for receiving handouts. They wanted gainful employment and their dignity back. You could have corporations foot the bill for basic income and people with certain values would still not want it. The image of being a breadwinner is so deeply instilled in some people that for them not being that, triggers mid-life-crisis: a depression, sense of…

This is one of the main theories as to why Trump was successful in the US. The US economy can't properly support it's workforce fully. The Democrats offered social safety net. The Republicans offered tax cuts and deregulation to the business owners. Neither solved the underlying problem that the US economy can't properly support the workforce. People want an honest day's pay for an honest day's work as they have for…

I just simply dont agree. I'd be perfectly happy to do what I pleased everyday if I could. I'm not a huge fan of having to meet deadlines or any of the many little tasks that come with having to work. I think it's truly strange that people are afraid of not having work because it means they will be listless.
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