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Why we should all have a basic income

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Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#111
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would the prices change? The demand hasn't changed? The supply hasn't changed? People are still buying the same basic things they did before. The money is simply shifted around from the rich to the poor?

"shifted around" is nice euphemism for theft.

Such a statement is only meaningful if the rules and systems that distribute wealth are sufficiently orderly and broadly considered fair. In a system considered to be significantly arbitrary or rigged, the whole concept of ownership is seriously weakened.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#112
post #93

Merely a way to control people. It's dishonest to pretend that it's for everyone, the first thing that will happen if you wrong the power structure is it will withdraw funding. Not that I am particularly worried, this will never happen in the United States. China on the other hand, I bet they would love to tie this to their human scoring system.

Would not the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment apply here? UBI, once granted to all, could not be taken away from individuals or groups in the way you are suggesting.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#113

If everyone gets $1000 every month guaranteed for "basic needs", the prices for those basic needs will increase accordingly. And independently. So you'll end up spending that $1k on either housing, bills or food. So you will still need a job if you want all three of those things, not sit around and contemplate what you should do with your life. It's sort of like how the ACA raised the overall price of insurance. Givi…

What you just advocated there, is that "basic needs" must be denied to part of population in order to make them cheaper to the other part. That's both economical and morally wrong.

Nobody is denying anybody anything. Everyone is free to work, and compensation for your work fulfills your basic needs. A better system for human society has yet to be invented.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#114
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very little of what you said is reality. > They, and everyone else, receive $12k per year. You didn't read the article. The only people who receive net $12k per year are those who have zero income. Everyone else receives net > The poor (and those just above them on the economic ladder) will spend all of that on basic needs: food, housing, clothing, transportation. Incorrect. Who are you to dictate to people how to sp…

I'm starting to think you're trolling. You're zeroing in on phrases and ignoring the principles they explain. And what is a 'healthy way' for prices to change for basic needs? They aren't going to drop. Any other change hurts the poor.

Ok, let's spell it out with a basic example

You said we are going to give $12 billion to the poor

There is $747 billion of credit card debt in the United States. Much of that comes from lending in the past to the poor to finance their basic needs.

$747 billion > $12 billion

It is possible that all of 1 year's basic income entirely goes toward paying off credit card debt. In this scenario:

1) The poor receive a much needed benefit from basic income: they get to pay off their credit card bills.

2) There is no change in demand on basic goods whatsoever.

3) This significant paying down of debt leads to consumer interest rates going down, which further helps the poor.

So here is one scenario that is a counterexample to your claim that this can "any other change hurts the poor". This is an example which helps the poor.

You are forgetting that people have the freedom to do what they want with their money. When prices go up for one thing, they spend their money in other ways.

Healthy ways for prices to change:

1) The price change is stable, rather than runaway. It happens once, and that's it, but we continue to pay basic income year after year. This is expected, if we keep the money supply fixed.

2) The price change eventually leads to an increase in wages for the poor, which have been stagnant for decades.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#115

Almost everyone here seems to be discussing the economic challenges of UBI, but so far I haven't seen much mention of the political challenges. UBI is a completely unworkable concept in the U.S.A and likely many European countries as well. American citizens will be literally shooting eachother in the streets before they accept such a massive wealth redistribution mechanism, and that resistance will be mostly made up…

Americans do not trust that the government has their best interests in mind, ergo Americans do not want to have their money taken away from them to pay for government programs.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#116
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Funny how all the proponents of a Universal 'Basic' Income aren't proposing instead to make every 'Basic' item 'Free'. >After all, if you believe their rhetoric, giving someone $500/mo should be the same as giving them free bread, eggs, milk, some clothes and some movie tickets. It's not "funny", it's the core part of basic income that separates it from state-run socialism. Not making a determination about what is o…

Go back to 1950s USA where average annual salary was just over $3000 - if I told you back then I'd give you $500 a month - almost twice the average salary where do you think we'd all be now? Would we be even here? Now take your $500 a month and project forward another 50-60 years. What do you think it'll buy you then and why? By picking a monetary amount - be it $50, $500 or $1000 it IS absolutely making a determinat…

It seems to me it'd have to be specified as a formula based on the "poverty threshold" and "inflation." I really can't imagine just throwing out a number and expecting it to be unchanged for decades.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#117
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"shifted around" is nice euphemism for theft.

With that logic all taxes and social policies are theft.

Correct. Personal taxes (taking things via threat of force) are theft. It does not matter who is doing the taking.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#118

Capitalism is going away, no matter what, once we have massive unemployment due to automation. You think people are just going to accept starvation? Shit will get real, real fast. And most people aren't as articulate or reasonable as the people on this site. There will be massive violence. A better way to look at UBI is that it's not about giving poor people money. Its about keeping the fabric of society together and…

Alternatively the government tells the robots to lock up the poor rioters, so the rich can keep spending their money in peace. There will be violence on both sides. Still this is all hypothetical, all we did was make some neural nets be able to classify some images, there is still a ridiculous amount of work to do.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#119
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Funny how all the proponents of a Universal 'Basic' Income aren't proposing instead to make every 'Basic' item 'Free'. >After all, if you believe their rhetoric, giving someone $500/mo should be the same as giving them free bread, eggs, milk, some clothes and some movie tickets. It's not "funny", it's the core part of basic income that separates it from state-run socialism. Not making a determination about what is o…

Go back to 1950s USA where average annual salary was just over $3000 - if I told you back then I'd give you $500 a month - almost twice the average salary where do you think we'd all be now? Would we be even here? Now take your $500 a month and project forward another 50-60 years. What do you think it'll buy you then and why? By picking a monetary amount - be it $50, $500 or $1000 it IS absolutely making a determinat…

The precise amount will not be enshrined in the constitution. It will be most likely adjusted periodically to ensure subsistence without removing the motivation to work.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#120

Capitalism is going away, no matter what, once we have massive unemployment due to automation. You think people are just going to accept starvation? Shit will get real, real fast. And most people aren't as articulate or reasonable as the people on this site. There will be massive violence. A better way to look at UBI is that it's not about giving poor people money. Its about keeping the fabric of society together and…

Capitalism is surprisingly adept at evolving. I don't think it's "going away, no matter what". I'm also skeptical of the "automation apocalypse" that everyone is talking about. MY predicition is there is going to be a massive shift in blue collar work such that basic programming will become a trade to deal with the exponentially growing software maintenance problems.
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