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Why we should all have a basic income

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Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#291

Post by coldtea »

sean_patel wrote: post #217
dzink wrote: post #192

During Brexit, people in job-starved areas of UK were reported as resentful for receiving handouts. They wanted gainful employment and their dignity back. You could have corporations foot the bill for basic income and people with certain values would still not want it. The image of being a breadwinner is so deeply instilled in some people that for them not being that, triggers mid-life-crisis: a depression, sense of…

I couldn't get past the 1st line > Consider for a moment that from this day forward, on the first day of every month, around $1,000 is deposited into your bank account – because you are a citizen. If implemented, it will surely be a disaster in America (DOA - Dead on Arrival), considering how well African Americans have worked and abused the Food Stamps system. Let me tell you a story. I was getting my beat up Honda…

>If implemented, it will surely be a disaster in America (DOA - Dead on Arrival), considering how well African Americans have worked and abused the Food Stamps system.

Oh, couldn't be bothered to read the number breakdown AND racist to boot.

What do you know about "how well African Americans have worked and abused the Food Stamps system" apart from what some biased media tell you and/or a few anecdotal stories?

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#292

Post by simonh »

braveo wrote: post #237
TulliusCicero wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are absolutely people like you, and absolutely people who will just play WoW all day, every day. The question is, how many of each?

why does it matter? The point of UBI is to allow people to do what they want.

This is a persistent and pernicious misconception. UBI is intended to increase people's autonomy, but manly by eliminating the poverty trap. Too many people live off benefits they would lose if they took a low paying no job, so are better off or only marginally worse off not working. UBI takes that problem away to that everyone would always be substantially better off working. It would act as a major subsidy for low paying jobs by ensuring even quite low pay would represent a major improvement in marginal income, thus making it cheaper to hire unskilled labour and increasing the number and variety of jobs. It's not intended that a significant number of people would only rely on their UBI.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#293

Post by closeparen »

dzink wrote: post #192

During Brexit, people in job-starved areas of UK were reported as resentful for receiving handouts. They wanted gainful employment and their dignity back. You could have corporations foot the bill for basic income and people with certain values would still not want it. The image of being a breadwinner is so deeply instilled in some people that for them not being that, triggers mid-life-crisis: a depression, sense of…

What could be less dignified than working a job you are empirically inferior for because you got your competition banned?

That doing automatable busywork by hand is somehow more dignified than receiving handouts is an absurd idea (it's just as much a handout, only in this case you have to jump through hoops for it).

That others people should be required to do automatable busywork to receive their handouts is a cruel and borderline evil idea.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#294

Post by slifin »

akjainaj wrote: post #240
braveo wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why does it matter? The point of UBI is to allow people to do what they want.

What would happen if everybody left their jobs overnight and started playing WoW? Other than Blizzard having to open thousands of new realms. Of course not everybody will quit their job to play a videogame, but what if a significant % of workers were simply "lost" overnight?

If you look at the tragectory of humans from star dust, it's clear the pattern is progress

We are progress, it's the inability to progress that is the problem for a lot of us

If we break down that barrier then wow like things that supply fake progress will be less relevant

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#295

Post by masterj »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #249
braveo wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why does it matter? The point of UBI is to allow people to do what they want.

It matters because of the potential impact on society? Part of the promise of UBI that proponents often talk about is unleashing more human potential that's currently stuck in some corporate grind. And while playing WoW all day isn't exactly the worst thing, I could see issues if that turns into people getting depressed. MMO addiction isn't really healthy.

> And while [sitting in an office] all day isn't exactly the worst thing, I could see issues if that turns into people getting depressed. [Office work] isn't really healthy.

> And while [bagging groceries] all day isn't exactly the worst thing, I could see issues if that turns into people getting depressed. [Menial labor] isn't really healthy.

> And while [driving an truck / bus / uber] all day isn't exactly the worst thing, I could see issues if that turns into people getting depressed. [Sitting all day] isn't really healthy.

UBI at least gives people options. If someone is happy playing WoW all day, and society doesn't really need them anyway... I see no harm in that. At least they have the option to quit playing and do something else. People doing menial labor often don't.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#296

Post by prodmerc »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #154
prodmerc wrote: post #15

If everyone gets $1000 every month guaranteed for "basic needs", the prices for those basic needs will increase accordingly. And independently. So you'll end up spending that $1k on either housing, bills or food. So you will still need a job if you want all three of those things, not sit around and contemplate what you should do with your life. It's sort of like how the ACA raised the overall price of insurance. Givi…

> Prove me wrong. Ok here we go. > If everyone gets $1000 every month guaranteed for "basic needs", the prices for those basic needs will increase accordingly. And independently. So you'll end up spending that $1k on either housing, bills or food. They don't get $1000/month for "basic needs", they get $1000/month for whatever they want . It's completely unconditional. Which means people wouldn't go out and buy twice…

> Suddenly a million sick people are making insurance claims who previously had no insurance, what did you think was going to happen to premiums?

This is what I mean.

From a business point of view, suddenly everyone has an extra $1000.

They were buying stuff from you until now, there's no reason not to try to drive the price up to see how much more you can charge now.

If enough businesses will do that, it will reach a critical mass where the ones charging old prices are the idiots left behind.

So if literally everyone has an extra $1000, nobody has an extra $1000.

A bit different with insurance, since the government forced insurance companies to accept all these people, so they increased prices. I'll ignore the fact that they were still making enough profit to just accept the losses, because people are greedy and they will always want all the profit they can get.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#297

Post by prodmerc »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #177
akjainaj wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the theory that if you give money to everybody, prices will go up because sellers will figure they can increase the price of everything without it negatively affecting sales, since every buyer simply has more money to spare, no excuses.

> I have the theory that if you give money to everybody, prices would go up because sellers will figure they can increase the price of everything without it negatively affecting sales, since every buyer simply has more money to spare, no excuses. That's how monopoly markets work. But if you're a grocery store and you realize everybody now has $4 more in their pockets, you can't start charging $5 for an apple when the…

You'll definitely start charging $2, otherwise you would not have stayed in business for long.

If you keep the same price, but everyone is charging 4x as much, you are losing, because everyone else needs 4x less customers to make the same profit as you, not to mention the work involved.

You'll run out of supply soon enough, too.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#298

Post by prodmerc »

jakeogh wrote: post #117
anonfunction wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With that logic all taxes and social policies are theft.

Correct. Personal taxes (taking things via threat of force) are theft. It does not matter who is doing the taking.

Glad you are and always will be a millionaire who doesn't use any public services and will never need to worry about hospital bills, housing or food.

Otherwise you're an idiot.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#299

Post by prodmerc »

raintrees wrote: post #169
jakeogh wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. Personal taxes (taking things via threat of force) are theft. It does not matter who is doing the taking.

Thank you. If my seizing my neighbor's extra car because I do not have one is theft, it is still theft if I convince a majority to pass a law take it for me. And it is enforced with the threat of (or actual) violence against my neighbor, if my neighbor refuses.

Well, you can always stop using roads, hospitals, sidewalks, subsidized foods and fuel.

Then you can call the tax man a thief and shoot him.

Unless you're rich, taxation benefits you, you brainwashed idiot.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#300

Post by stale2002 »

prodmerc wrote: post #15

If everyone gets $1000 every month guaranteed for "basic needs", the prices for those basic needs will increase accordingly. And independently. So you'll end up spending that $1k on either housing, bills or food. So you will still need a job if you want all three of those things, not sit around and contemplate what you should do with your life. It's sort of like how the ACA raised the overall price of insurance. Givi…

You are wrong.

You are talking about inflation. Inflation happens when you increase the money supply.

There is a very easy way to give people a bunch of money without increasing the money supply.

This easy way is called "taking the money away from someone else" aka you pay for it with "taxes".

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