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Why we should all have a basic income

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Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#241

Post by twblalock »

vectorpush wrote: post #108

Almost everyone here seems to be discussing the economic challenges of UBI, but so far I haven't seen much mention of the political challenges. UBI is a completely unworkable concept in the U.S.A and likely many European countries as well. American citizens will be literally shooting eachother in the streets before they accept such a massive wealth redistribution mechanism, and that resistance will be mostly made up…

Eve if the American people were willing to accept UBI, it still wouldn't work the way proponents hope it will.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that the US Congress actually passed a UBI bill that was simple, elegant, and did not have a bunch of complicated amendments tacked onto it. Let's say they passed a bill stipulating that every person in the United States would get a check from the government every month, and that every check would be for the same amount. Let's also assume that the bill replaces every other welfare program with UBI, like the libertarian proponents of UBI hope will happen.

Even if that happened (and it certainly would not), it would only be a matter of time before it gets messed up. There are a lot of reasons the current system is the way it is. There are many reasons the voters would want some people to get more money than others under UBI, and many of them would be convincing. For example, should single mothers get more UBI money? What about cutting benefits for convicted felons? What about more UBI money for people in high-cost-of-living cities like New York and San Francisco? What about more UBI money as a form of affirmative action for certain racial groups? People will vote for some of those changes.

We would therefore end up re-creating a lot of our current welfare programs within UBI, for the same reasons we created those programs in the first place. Tyler Cowen has written more persuasively on this topic here: http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2013/11/wha...

UBI proponents have a few questions to answer: how can we afford it, how will it work, and how can they prevent it from being turned back into our current welfare programs under a different name? And how can they prevent the voters from simply voting to give themselves more money, thereby bankrupting the government?

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#242

Post by funkyy »

andosa wrote: post #135
funkyy wrote: post #94

Automation will not reduce overall jobs same way industrialization did not do that. Automation will create more jobs in services instead. Basic income is crazy socialist dream that was tested in communism already and it failed.

You assume that robots/algorithms will never be as good at some jobs as a worker with median abilities. This is a very strong (and likely wrong in the long term) assumption to make.

At least I doubt it will happen in this millennium. We have much more real problems today. The world is in a bad place and instead of trying to save resources, make it a better place for our kids, we focus on providing more social benefits. I have been living with people with difficult financial situation for a while and the last thing they needed was handouts. They wanted jobs, work, way to interact with people and learn new things. Not free money.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#243

Post by nickez »

tomp wrote: post #148
tvelichkov wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> If you combine that with the decreased motivation of people to work (resulting in lower supply) You won't get lower supply because of the automation, because that's the reason you are giving basic income in the first place. John no longer needs to drive it's truck, the truck is gonna drive itself.

Then (presumably) costs will fall, stuff will get cheaper (free-ish?), UBI won't be needed.

Unless the owner of the truck keeps whatever he paid the driver..

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#244

Post by DougN7 »

jganetsk wrote: post #152
DougN7 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm starting to think you're trolling. You're zeroing in on phrases and ignoring the principles they explain. And what is a 'healthy way' for prices to change for basic needs? They aren't going to drop. Any other change hurts the poor.

Here's another simple example. Let's assume that basic income will cause net income to go up for the poor (otherwise, what's the point?) But let's also assume that prices on certain goods will go up (a totally reasonable assumption). Then let's measure wealth in terms of "Big Macs". As in, how many Big Macs can you buy in one year? If basic income causes this number to go up for you... then you've benefitted from bas…

With that thinking, the government should just turn on the printing presses and hand money out. People who had zero now have non-zero. Surely Big Macs can't go to $12,000, right?

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#245

Post by chc »

sean_patel wrote: post #217
dzink wrote: post #192

During Brexit, people in job-starved areas of UK were reported as resentful for receiving handouts. They wanted gainful employment and their dignity back. You could have corporations foot the bill for basic income and people with certain values would still not want it. The image of being a breadwinner is so deeply instilled in some people that for them not being that, triggers mid-life-crisis: a depression, sense of…

I couldn't get past the 1st line > Consider for a moment that from this day forward, on the first day of every month, around $1,000 is deposited into your bank account – because you are a citizen. If implemented, it will surely be a disaster in America (DOA - Dead on Arrival), considering how well African Americans have worked and abused the Food Stamps system. Let me tell you a story. I was getting my beat up Honda…

Generalizing second-hand anecdotes from somebody who obviously has an axe to grind into racist fantasies is not a very good way to determine "the ground reality."

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#246

Post by johanneskanybal »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #230
monk_e_boy wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was made unemployed, it was the lack of money that made me feel undignified. I couldn't feed my kids and had to as for handouts. UBI would have been amazing. I would have spent the money on food, shelter and heating. I would have spent the time writing software and trying to start a company.

There are absolutely people like you, and absolutely people who will just play WoW all day, every day. The question is, how many of each?

So the more controversial question here is if we should do it anyway even if it turns out to be a net loss because.. we can.

Then the more dystropian view would be how else are we gonna keep the plebs under control if we think the unemployed will be the majority in the future?

Just pointing out there's a couple of different angles on this not just the net gain one.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#247

Post by raintrees »

EliRivers wrote: post #182
raintrees wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you. If my seizing my neighbor's extra car because I do not have one is theft, it is still theft if I convince a majority to pass a law take it for me. And it is enforced with the threat of (or actual) violence against my neighbor, if my neighbor refuses.

Negative. Theft is a crime. Crime is defined by the criminal law. If you choose to have your own personal criminal law, so that you can call whatever you like theft, that's up to you, but if you're going to do that with language, you can claim anything is anything.

Okay, we disagree. (*edit: we disagree about taxes being theft). But that is what I enjoy about communicating with other intelligent people, we can discuss ideas and not have to agree.

I have been studying this in my free time for the last decade or so, and do not have a ready list of sources handy, but here are a few I gathered in the last 30 minutes, should you be curious as to why I think this way: https://mises.org/library/taxation-robbery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_as_theft

A very short list of sites containing general backgrounders: https://mises.org/ http://www.ronpaulcurriculum.com/ http://tomwoods.com/ https://www.freemansperspective.com/

A short list of sources on this direction of thinking to start with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_von_Mises https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Hayek https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray_Rothbard

Much of this is intertwined in Libertarianism, Austrian Economics, and even Minarchy/Anarchy.

I obey the laws of the jurisdiction that I reside in, but that does not mean that I am not trying to actively change those laws for what I perceive as "the better"...

I search for as close an approximation to "the best way" as I can, understanding that humans are fallible by nature.

For entertainment, I am re-reading the book A Lodging of Wayfaring Men, a fictional book by Paul Rosenberg. While it is in severe need of editing (self-published?) I find it entertaining enough to re-read to get excited/stimulated about the possibilities of correcting systems that I consider to be operating very inefficiently, or flat out wrong.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#248

Post by brianwawok »

stenl wrote: post #191
vectorpush wrote: post #108

Almost everyone here seems to be discussing the economic challenges of UBI, but so far I haven't seen much mention of the political challenges. UBI is a completely unworkable concept in the U.S.A and likely many European countries as well. American citizens will be literally shooting eachother in the streets before they accept such a massive wealth redistribution mechanism, and that resistance will be mostly made up…

Off-topic, but Americans literally are shooting each other in the streets. More americans have died in gun homicides than died in all wars since, and including WW2. Include suicides, and gun violence exceeds all US war deaths ever. http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/aug/27/...

Some Americans in some areas. My experience has been if you do not get involved with buying or selling drugs, you will be pretty safe.

Which I guess is the point of the war on drugs, but that hasn't worked out so well.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#249

Post by TulliusCicero »

braveo wrote: post #237
TulliusCicero wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are absolutely people like you, and absolutely people who will just play WoW all day, every day. The question is, how many of each?

why does it matter? The point of UBI is to allow people to do what they want.

It matters because of the potential impact on society? Part of the promise of UBI that proponents often talk about is unleashing more human potential that's currently stuck in some corporate grind.

And while playing WoW all day isn't exactly the worst thing, I could see issues if that turns into people getting depressed. MMO addiction isn't really healthy.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#250

Post by Koshkin »

ako wrote: post #231
Koshkin wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In communistic days in eastern europe, everyone was employed, but most people had a lousy job, that involved very little effort. I find this hard to believe. Why would a job "in communistic days" be different from, well, a job?

Because there was a job for everyone. Government had to create a job for everyone. See: http://www.crf-usa.org/bill-of-rights-in-action/bria-19-1-a-... "In the workplace, almost everyone had a job. Wages,however, lagged far behind those in the Western democracies. A common joke was, "They pretend to pay us, and we pretend to work." But rents, goods, and services were far cheaper than in the West."

> job for everyone

You are implying that this was dictated by political rather than economical reasons, but that may be not entirely correct.

> we pretend to work

This is true - for some workers. Thing is, the Western society in not and has never been different in this regard. And, some of the "job creation" policies could exacerbate the problem even more.

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