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Why we should all have a basic income

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Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#151
post #84

We changed the URL from https://medium.com/world-economic-forum/why-we-should-all-ha... , which points to this. Although basic income is obviously a well-worn topic, this article seems a bit more substantive than average. So we'll try downweighting this thread less than we usually do for well-worn topics.

It's good to hear confirmation that you're doing this sort of thing. May I suggest surfacing this drag coefficient to the UI, so that people know what you've done? It looks pretty sleazy when a young thread with high engagement (comments and upvotes) nonetheless slides to the second page.

That's just how HN works. Story rank is determined not only by upvotes and submission time, but by numerous other factors including active moderation. We're unlikely to publish all that because doing so would increase two bad things: attempts to game the site, and meta nitpicking. Those are bad in their own right and eat up the resources we have for making HN better, so it's in the community interest to minimize them.

The approach we've taken re transparency on HN is not to make all the data public but rather to answer users' questions about how the site works or what's going on in specific cases. That seems to be the optimum.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#152
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very little of what you said is reality. > They, and everyone else, receive $12k per year. You didn't read the article. The only people who receive net $12k per year are those who have zero income. Everyone else receives net > The poor (and those just above them on the economic ladder) will spend all of that on basic needs: food, housing, clothing, transportation. Incorrect. Who are you to dictate to people how to sp…

I'm starting to think you're trolling. You're zeroing in on phrases and ignoring the principles they explain. And what is a 'healthy way' for prices to change for basic needs? They aren't going to drop. Any other change hurts the poor.

Here's another simple example.

Let's assume that basic income will cause net income to go up for the poor (otherwise, what's the point?) But let's also assume that prices on certain goods will go up (a totally reasonable assumption).

Then let's measure wealth in terms of "Big Macs". As in, how many Big Macs can you buy in one year? If basic income causes this number to go up for you... then you've benefitted from basic income, regardless of how much the price of a Big Mac increased.

If your income goes from zero to non-zero... you definitely benefit. Because with zero income, you can buy zero Big Macs. But with non-zero income, you can buy non-zero Big Macs... no matter how much the price of a Big Mac goes up. And the number of Big Macs you can buy will be greater than one... Big Macs won't cost $12,000 in this scenario. That would be ridiculous.

So we can use this as a framework to analyze how basic income impacts society. Then it is obvious that basic income benefits the poorest in society. But you are right, it may harm some people. However, it requires a much more rigorous analysis than you are providing.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#154

If everyone gets $1000 every month guaranteed for "basic needs", the prices for those basic needs will increase accordingly. And independently. So you'll end up spending that $1k on either housing, bills or food. So you will still need a job if you want all three of those things, not sit around and contemplate what you should do with your life. It's sort of like how the ACA raised the overall price of insurance. Givi…

> Prove me wrong.

Ok here we go.

> If everyone gets $1000 every month guaranteed for "basic needs", the prices for those basic needs will increase accordingly. And independently. So you'll end up spending that $1k on either housing, bills or food.

They don't get $1000/month for "basic needs", they get $1000/month for whatever they want. It's completely unconditional.

Which means people wouldn't go out and buy twice as much food as they currently eat because they suddenly have a pile of money that can only be used for buying food. Unless they are currently starving, which hardly anyone in the US is, they would buy the same amount of food that they do now and there would be no inflation in the price of food.

And anything with the effect of increasing nominal housing prices without reducing the ability of people to buy housing is excellent because it allows you to increase the housing stock without reducing nominal housing prices and causing existing homeowners to go underwater on their mortgages. In other words you can build more housing to cancel out the effect without NIMBYs fighting you and thus allow more people to own homes.

> It's sort of like how the ACA raised the overall price of insurance.

The primary driver of increasing insurance premiums wasn't the subsidy, it was the requirement that insurance companies take people with preexisting conditions. Suddenly a million sick people are making insurance claims who previously had no insurance, what did you think was going to happen to premiums?

> Giving money/help selectively to those who need it right now (and can prove it, i.e. no job but looking for one) is still better than UBI.

Only if you want them to pretend to look for a job and never find one. And you want to create a poverty trap because actually taking a job doesn't actually increase the amount of money in their pocket because the government withdraws an equivalent amount of benefits.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if new money was introduced into the closed loop system instead of being redistributed within the system

New money would most definitely have to be introduced. In the US we introduce new money into the system every year by having a fed govt budget deficit.

This isn't a necessary condition, it's just the easier route to take politically, and if there is one thing we can agree upon, its that our new administration doesn't give a damn about criticism, so we at least stand a chance with such a proposal.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#159

bad idea. totally unworkable. this will create a class of dependent poor people. It will also create a working class who slaves away to provide for those who refuse to work.

There already is a class of dependent poor people. Most of them have jobs.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#160

Almost everyone here seems to be discussing the economic challenges of UBI, but so far I haven't seen much mention of the political challenges. UBI is a completely unworkable concept in the U.S.A and likely many European countries as well. American citizens will be literally shooting eachother in the streets before they accept such a massive wealth redistribution mechanism, and that resistance will be mostly made up…

I've heard convincing arguments[1] from economists that we should convert our existing "safety net" and "welfare" programs to simple UBI (aka BIG). The argument tends to circle around the fact that the existing programs dis-incentivize getting off disability or Section 8 because the recipient is penalized in a step-function way (as soon as they get a job, they may become ineligible or could be charged with a crime).…

I worry that you just made it even more politically untenable.

"You are taking away my retirement I earned and giving it to everyone?"

"Don't touch my medicaid!"

"They are trying to kill the soup kitchens; look at these children we feed."

Or whatever. There is such aggressive fighting for scraps that no one wants to make a big-picture shift that might have unknown societal repercussions.

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