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Why we should all have a basic income

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Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#231

Post by ako »

Koshkin wrote: post #221
ako wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Creating jobs is one thing, but creating meaningful jobs is something completely different. In communistic days in eastern europe, everyone was employed, but most people had a lousy job, that involved very little effort. The first time i came to the US, i got the same feeling, lots of meaningless jobs (lift boy, parking lot attendant, grocery store bag filler) that i didn't see in the Netherlands. Are these meaningle…

> In communistic days in eastern europe, everyone was employed, but most people had a lousy job, that involved very little effort. I find this hard to believe. Why would a job "in communistic days" be different from, well, a job?

Because there was a job for everyone. Government had to create a job for everyone.

See: http://www.crf-usa.org/bill-of-rights-in-action/bria-19-1-a-...

"In the workplace, almost everyone had a job. Wages,however, lagged far behind those in the Western democracies. A common joke was, "They pretend to pay us, and we pretend to work." But rents, goods, and services were far cheaper than in the West."

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#232

Post by BerislavLopac »

Koshkin wrote: post #221
ako wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Creating jobs is one thing, but creating meaningful jobs is something completely different. In communistic days in eastern europe, everyone was employed, but most people had a lousy job, that involved very little effort. The first time i came to the US, i got the same feeling, lots of meaningless jobs (lift boy, parking lot attendant, grocery store bag filler) that i didn't see in the Netherlands. Are these meaningle…

> In communistic days in eastern europe, everyone was employed, but most people had a lousy job, that involved very little effort. I find this hard to believe. Why would a job "in communistic days" be different from, well, a job?

Because the state created (and paid for) jobs to make sure everyone's nominally employed. It was essentially a form of UBI, although there were different levels and amounts for different people.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#233

Post by marcinzm »

atom-morgan wrote: post #109
bryanlarsen wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) Americans currently consume (not necessarily eat) 3800 kcals/day of food without basic income. Are you saying that basic income will make that number go up? 2) The American housing market is very messed up and far from a free market, so any prediction up or down is very difficult. I predict that Basic Income will cause a bunch of people to move from high cost cities like NYC & SF into low cost areas so that they c…

> 1) Americans currently consume (not necessarily eat) 3800 kcals/day of food without basic income. Are you saying that basic income will make that number go up? I think they were referring to the cost of food, not the calories.

Why would the cost go up if more food isn't eaten?

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#234

Post by DougN7 »

vessenes wrote: post #124
DougN7 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm starting to think you're trolling. You're zeroing in on phrases and ignoring the principles they explain. And what is a 'healthy way' for prices to change for basic needs? They aren't going to drop. Any other change hurts the poor.

I too think your economic arguments are pretty far off from a likely scenario, so I'll try to say a little bit in counter. In your example, $12bn goes to people who are 'poor'. You imagine all of this will be spent on scarce consumer resources and housing, creating increasing cost for those items. You make a number of assumptions that have to be teased out before we can know how likely that scenario is: 1. Poor peopl…

Try this experiment: imagine we gave everyone a UBI of $1 Billion per year. Sure, it's rediculous, but think of the ramifications (changes in prices in particular). If you could chart how much you give everyone (from 0 to $1 billion) vs the amount prices would change, you'd have some continuous upward movement. Maybe linear, maybe not. The point is giving everyone $1 billion obviously will increase prices. But there isn't some point along that line where it suddenly jumps. It's not like giving everyone $35K per year has no impact, but $35,100 does. It all has an impact, scaled by the amount given.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#235

Post by ElComradio »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #154
prodmerc wrote: post #15

If everyone gets $1000 every month guaranteed for "basic needs", the prices for those basic needs will increase accordingly. And independently. So you'll end up spending that $1k on either housing, bills or food. So you will still need a job if you want all three of those things, not sit around and contemplate what you should do with your life. It's sort of like how the ACA raised the overall price of insurance. Givi…

> Prove me wrong. Ok here we go. > If everyone gets $1000 every month guaranteed for "basic needs", the prices for those basic needs will increase accordingly. And independently. So you'll end up spending that $1k on either housing, bills or food. They don't get $1000/month for "basic needs", they get $1000/month for whatever they want . It's completely unconditional. Which means people wouldn't go out and buy twice…

Long term this may indeed happen but in the short term, it seems unlikely. Like with school vouchers, if I ran a private for-profit school and knew my students suddenly had an extra $X,000 to spend on tuition, my short term move would understandably be to raise tuition at least some percentage of that amount. If the market responds in a couple of years by forcing me to dial it back, so be it, but in the meantime I've made more money without having to provide more services.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#236

Post by shahbaby »

“How we live is so different from how we ought to live that he who studies what ought to be done rather than what is done will learn the way to his downfall rather than to his preservation.” ― Niccolò Machiavelli 1469 - 1527

Even if UBI was proven to be a net gain to society, implementation is highly unlikely.

This is less about technology/economics and more about human nature, which has not changed much over the last 500 years.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#237

Post by braveo »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #230
monk_e_boy wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was made unemployed, it was the lack of money that made me feel undignified. I couldn't feed my kids and had to as for handouts. UBI would have been amazing. I would have spent the money on food, shelter and heating. I would have spent the time writing software and trying to start a company.

There are absolutely people like you, and absolutely people who will just play WoW all day, every day. The question is, how many of each?

why does it matter? The point of UBI is to allow people to do what they want.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#238

Post by Koshkin »

jjawssd wrote: post #115
vectorpush wrote: post #108

Almost everyone here seems to be discussing the economic challenges of UBI, but so far I haven't seen much mention of the political challenges. UBI is a completely unworkable concept in the U.S.A and likely many European countries as well. American citizens will be literally shooting eachother in the streets before they accept such a massive wealth redistribution mechanism, and that resistance will be mostly made up…

Americans do not trust that the government has their best interests in mind, ergo Americans do not want to have their money taken away from them to pay for government programs.

A government, while being a necessity, is not to be trusted. The Founding Fathers understood that, and they made it clear to others. A government is a mechanism that is prone to deterioration over time, and it takes a substantial effort to keep it in a shape in which it protects people's interests rather than its own.

Also, from the historical prospective, governments are the ones who are responsible for most killings of people on a large scale. How, then, can an intelligent person trust a government?

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#239

Post by planck01 »

shahbaby wrote: post #236

“How we live is so different from how we ought to live that he who studies what ought to be done rather than what is done will learn the way to his downfall rather than to his preservation.” ― Niccolò Machiavelli 1469 - 1527 Even if UBI was proven to be a net gain to society, implementation is highly unlikely. This is less about technology/economics and more about human nature, which has not changed much over the las…

That's right. People can't stand the idea of freeloaders that don't have to do anything and get everything for free, while we are working hard to pay for their stuff. Even if this hardly happens, the thought alone scares and angers the hell out of most people.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#240

Post by akjainaj »

braveo wrote: post #237
TulliusCicero wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are absolutely people like you, and absolutely people who will just play WoW all day, every day. The question is, how many of each?

why does it matter? The point of UBI is to allow people to do what they want.

What would happen if everybody left their jobs overnight and started playing WoW? Other than Blizzard having to open thousands of new realms.

Of course not everybody will quit their job to play a videogame, but what if a significant % of workers were simply "lost" overnight?

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