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Why we should all have a basic income

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Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#121

Almost everyone here seems to be discussing the economic challenges of UBI, but so far I haven't seen much mention of the political challenges. UBI is a completely unworkable concept in the U.S.A and likely many European countries as well. American citizens will be literally shooting eachother in the streets before they accept such a massive wealth redistribution mechanism, and that resistance will be mostly made up…

Americans do not trust that the government has their best interests in mind, ergo Americans do not want to have their money taken away from them to pay for government programs.

And, as evidenced by the actions of our Republican and Democratic party legislators, by the NSA and FBI ... the US government does not have my best interests in mind.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#122

UBI is attempting to cloak itself in free market rhetoric, but it's bullshit. Yes it may "incentivize" some individuals to work, but only by disincentivizing others. It takes money from top wealth producers, discouraging their labor, and gives it to people who aren't producing as much wealth, effectively subsidizing unproductive work. This will make everyone poorer in the long run. The struggling artist meme is an ap…

You're right about the wealth producers! We need a 100% inheritance tax! That way the wealth isn't going to people who didn't produce it! Then you redistribute that money to schools and training programs and small businesses to give opportunities to anyone to become a wealth producer! This improves the entire human race and not just the rich trust fund babies who haven't produced anything in their lives. I'm totally…

Your comment makes an excellent point. If our economy really was organized around incentivizing production, there are many things we could do to that end. In addition to a 100% inheritance tax, we could also surely implement policies that discouraged most types of rent-seeking and the passive growth of wealth that has allowed the richest in our country to become even richer without having to produce anything.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#123
post #98

It would work for a certain period of time until inflation catches up. You could keep raising the basic income to keep pace, but it would require raising it more every time and sooner than the last time (exponential). Inflation can be quite damaging because not everything inflates at the same rate. For example salaries are pretty slow to inflate compared to the prices for things like gas or food. This is why a mason…

My hunch is that costs of services will increase while consumables remain flat. Australia has a complex minimum wage system, but 20 AUD is typical and on the order of 15 USD. The result is that services such house cleaners, laundromats and car detailing are order 3 times expensive as in the US, however produce and imported goods (Australia continues to systematically kill off its domestic manufacturing capability) are more or less comparable with US prices.

Maybe its just a SV thing, but having my (share) house maintained by an army of Latinos for a fraction of my income makes me feel incredibly uneasy. The other one that gets me are the car washes along El Camino where white people drink coffee as their cars are tended to by Latinos.

Basic income will kill businesses that rely on cheap labour, as suddenly incremental incentive to work will be minimal at $9/hour (why work only to double my anual income?). To restore the incentive wages will also need to rise, and the net result will be more expensive services accessed by a smaller percentage of the highest earners.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#124
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very little of what you said is reality. > They, and everyone else, receive $12k per year. You didn't read the article. The only people who receive net $12k per year are those who have zero income. Everyone else receives net > The poor (and those just above them on the economic ladder) will spend all of that on basic needs: food, housing, clothing, transportation. Incorrect. Who are you to dictate to people how to sp…

I'm starting to think you're trolling. You're zeroing in on phrases and ignoring the principles they explain. And what is a 'healthy way' for prices to change for basic needs? They aren't going to drop. Any other change hurts the poor.

I too think your economic arguments are pretty far off from a likely scenario, so I'll try to say a little bit in counter.

In your example, $12bn goes to people who are 'poor'. You imagine all of this will be spent on scarce consumer resources and housing, creating increasing cost for those items.

You make a number of assumptions that have to be teased out before we can know how likely that scenario is:

1. Poor people will just spend any additional income.

2. Poor people will not have housing mobility and therefore be subject to rising prices for housing.

3. Consumer goods are scarce and supply will not increase based on increased demand.

1. has shown to be (surprisingly?) untrue in basic income trials so far. Read about India's Basic Income experiments at resources like this: http://www.salon.com/2015/01/25/sponsored_by_my_husband_why_... It turns out poor people use income security to accrue useful economic assets that have sustained financial benefits. Food security also improves. In addition, research into economic security shows that money worries vastly lower IQ (google for Sendhil Mullainathan and Eldar Shafir to learn more). So the data we have so far is pretty uniformly the opposite of your narrative here.

2. This to me seems pretty obviously false, or at least likely to at most be a small impact net of the money. Poorer families must choose between job proximity, communities, schools, all kinds of things, often with less than one month of safety money. Mobility is extraordinarily low in these circumstances. Guaranteed payments will vastly increase mobility for this community, allowing them to purchase property in economically appealing areas while expanding the number of jobs they take. This will at most redistribute people. Perhaps slumlords will raise rents immediately, but they will find two things: tenants who stay can pay, lowering their own costs, and tenants who don't like prices will move much more quickly. Liquidity in markets is good for efficiency. I don't think you can tell a compelling story about harm to poor renters with UBI here, it's just not sound reasoning.

3. This seems like a very silly assertion to make. Automated factories and low-labor-cost factories around the world would cheerfully sell 5x the consumer goods they manufacture now, and prices will decrease as demand increases. Perhaps the increased demand for factory workers would drive some additional jobs. But, a) I'm not sure what scarce resource you imagine will drive inflationary costs, and b) the India research shows spending goes into a pretty diverse basket of things, education, food security, investment and housing among others.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#125
post #98

It would work for a certain period of time until inflation catches up. You could keep raising the basic income to keep pace, but it would require raising it more every time and sooner than the last time (exponential). Inflation can be quite damaging because not everything inflates at the same rate. For example salaries are pretty slow to inflate compared to the prices for things like gas or food. This is why a mason…

Only if new money was introduced into the closed loop system instead of being redistributed within the system

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#126
I have a serious question for folks who support UBI: what is stopping you from getting started now and helping your neighbors?

Why not just cut out the middle-man (government bureaucracy) and provide someone with a monthly income from your own pocket?

This could be accomplished by individuals with high income (like many here), or by voluntarily pooling your money together.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans do not trust that the government has their best interests in mind, ergo Americans do not want to have their money taken away from them to pay for government programs.

And, as evidenced by the actions of our Republican and Democratic party legislators, by the NSA and FBI ... the US government does not have my best interests in mind.

The government doesn't have a single mind. Every agency has different goals and motivations. Sometimes they are even contradictory. We can choose where we want more government involvement and where we don't.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#129
post #99
post #54

Funny how all the proponents of a Universal 'Basic' Income aren't proposing instead to make every 'Basic' item 'Free'. After all, if you believe their rhetoric, giving someone $500/mo should be the same as giving them free bread, eggs, milk, some clothes and some movie tickets. I wonder why... Maybe, the reality is that over time our 'Basic' needs increase. In certain parts of the world shoes are still considered a l…

I watched a documentary about the ICRC. They asked sellers to come to a village somewhere in Congo and gave the villagers coupons so that they could buy what they needed the most and exchanged the coupons for money. They created something like a temporary UBI for a village and a market for different needs. A family bought mattresses, another family corrugated sheets, another clothes, and so on. If you give people bas…

A friend of mine works in welfare (a state worker) and has told me most people there don't really need anything. They simply take whatever they can, and they sell or trade what they don't need.

And what's even worse: many people turn violent if you don't give them whatever they ask for. So they had to put policemen there all day because they had hit the state workers many times.

You know, I'm a socialist, but these kinds of stories really make me turn libertarian there for a moment.

(This in Europe)

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#130

I have a serious question for folks who support UBI: what is stopping you from getting started now and helping your neighbors? Why not just cut out the middle-man (government bureaucracy) and provide someone with a monthly income from your own pocket? This could be accomplished by individuals with high income (like many here), or by voluntarily pooling your money together.

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