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Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

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Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No way. Brexit was primarily caused by xenophobia in combination with lack of education about how the EU works. Most people don't even know how many unanimous votes of all member states were necessary to get to the contemporary EU in the first place. Had there been a simple test of 10 questions about how the EU works, drawn from 100 previously published questions, that needed to be answered in order to qualify as a v…

Actually you don't know at all how Brexit was 'primarily caused' if indeed there was a primary cause. Plenty of cosmopolitan EU-savvy intellectuals supported 'Leave' with excellent arguments. An opinion is one thing; the pretense of having a penetrating analysis to the extent of proving it with a virtual quiz plus results (wow - it agrees with your prediction!) is another.

Okay, your opinion. I still know that it was primarily caused by these two factors, and even know that I know it.

I also have not heard a single excellent argument for Brexit so far - not a single one, and as a well-informed and educated person I've heard many if not all of them. "Plenty of" is too vague to be of any value as a statement, but I also wouldn't agree that there were "plenty of" EU-savvy intellectuals who supported 'Leave', unless you're willing to count people like Boris Johnson to this group. You and the rest of the 'Leave' is being dishonest or simply deluded / misinformed.

Please don't bother discussing this topic with me (or Trump supporters or climate change denial, for what it's worth). I'm sick of it and the UK. What I would like to ask you and your kind is to urge your politicians to exit the EU swiftly and then shut up and never blame the EU for anything that happens to the UK again. Bye!

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

indeed, I simply stopped selling services to the rest of the EU as it was not worth the effort in dealing with the new EU VAT regime, even though my small operation is below the threshold for VAT registration in my home country

I'd hope it's easier to sell to other EU companies within the EU than trying to export into the EU from outside, despite the VAT regime, in which case the bureaucracy is a net positive in that regard.

Sometimes I honestly wonder: If I would set up a US subsidiary to sell digital services through, and not comply with EU VAT laws, would I get into trouble?

A stupid example: buying a .com domain (as an individual) through an EU registrar will set you back $10 + VAT. If I buy it from a US company, I pay $10. Why would I buy from an EU registrar?

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from one of those "lesser" countries - Greece. I can assure you that nobody "stepped on our throat". For years we thrived as part of the EU, until the economic crisis hit and messed it all up. The Germans actually tried to help, in the way they thought was best, and despite appearances of heavy-handedness, nobody tried to force us to leave, which would have been the end of us. If you remember what happened a coup…

> I'm from one of those "lesser" countries - Greece. I can assure you that nobody "stepped on our throat". For years we thrived as part of the EU, until the economic crisis hit and messed it all up. "Thrived" just meant the Greek state could for a few years borrow money more easily because of the Euro, nothing substantial that one could actually call "thriving". The actual health of the economy (inflated numbers from…

>> Greece is now an ex-country on life support giving the semblance of a European country.

Aw, thank you. That's the most offensive thing I've read all month on the internet.

As to the rest of your erudite analysis, no, it was not just the Greek state that prospered and thrived in the time before the crisis. The Greek people also did. Our living standards rose with alacrity, so much so that a British family friend who had been visiting the country for a long time once remarked that the cats get fatter every time she sees them (though, to be fair, they have nothing on the British ones, I should say).

Also, no, people are not automata, and they do make imperfectly rational decisions- as evidenced by the Brexit vote, for instance. Indeed, in politics sentiment rules, otherwise countries would (almost) never go to war, or make catastrophic economic and political decisions, such as adopting communism and so on.

The easiest thing for the EU would have been to kick us out and towards the end of the peak of the Grexit crisis there were indeed voices that suggested the time might have come for the EU or at least the Eurozone, to go on without us. It didn't happen. Why not? Everyone's rational self-interest was to kick us out. Oh, but- I forget. The whole of the Eurozone economy was so hung up on the few millions they got out of the bailout, that they thought they couldn't live without us. Gods! We dodged a bullet, innit!

Of course you might disagree with me. As a Greek I'm used to everyone knowing what went down with the crisis, and Grexit, except me and other Greeks.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#314
post #248
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you've misunderstood how democracy works with a dictatorship. Just because your "side" lost the vote does not mean you cave in and blindly follow down a blind alley. By your reasoning, the other opposition parties (Labour, Liberal Democrats et al) should just sit idly by and not question or argue against any Tory policies for that term of Government? I agree with you that the vote has been cast, the UK is leavi…

Maybe you've misunderstood how democracy works with a dictatorship. Just because your "side" lost the vote does not mean you cave in and blindly follow down a blind alley But that is exactly what Remain would expect Leave to do, had Remain won, and everyone knows it.

When the vote is as close add it was, there is no high ground. It's a win/loss by a tiny majority. If remain had won I would like to think that people would have had enough sense to know that almost half the population is disgruntled and done something to make them happier instead of throwing insults everytime "they complained".

I guess no one will truly now know.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#315
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What double standards! So, trade tariffs and custom agreements: bureaucracy; restrictions on free movement [1] - that's just the will of the people! Populism is going to cost the UK dearly. And not just in terms of money. The UK is heading headlong into a kind of society taken straight out of the pages of "V for Vendetta". ________________ [1] "Controls on immigration"

> The UK is heading headlong into a kind of society taken straight out of the pages of "V for Vendetta". I call "Godwin by Proxy". There's many reasons to fear current trends but it's a touch premature to predict we're about to become a fascist dictatorship.

What gpderetta said, and also Teresa May pushed aggressively for RIPA, and has spoken about getting out of the jurisdiction of the ECHR.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#316

All because people think 3.5% of the population (immigrants) is 20% of the population. No one - no matter what they may claim today - voted for this. At the time they were saying "we'll get access to the single market because we're special". I'm completely lost and hopeless. We've torn up everything that's good because it's difficult, and we're exchanging it for everything that's bad, and will be a thousand times mor…

Where did your 3.5% come from?

[Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign-born_population_of_the...)

I made a mistake, it's 3.6%

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm from one of those "lesser" countries - Greece. I can assure you that nobody "stepped on our throat". For years we thrived as part of the EU, until the economic crisis hit and messed it all up. "Thrived" just meant the Greek state could for a few years borrow money more easily because of the Euro, nothing substantial that one could actually call "thriving". The actual health of the economy (inflated numbers from…

>> Greece is now an ex-country on life support giving the semblance of a European country. Aw, thank you. That's the most offensive thing I've read all month on the internet. As to the rest of your erudite analysis, no, it was not just the Greek state that prospered and thrived in the time before the crisis. The Greek people also did. Our living standards rose with alacrity, so much so that a British family friend wh…

>Aw, thank you. That's the most offensive thing I've read all month on the internet.

I doubt that. Besides, it's still true. Countries prosper or decline all the time. Losing 5% of your young educated population to brain drain, a huge hit on your economy, a continued debt burden, and a supervision program struggling development for the long term future, and a 30% or more income loss over the last decade, are all signs of a country in free fall. Heck, the unemployment alone is close to Weimar republic levels... And let's not go to the health of the banking system, or the welfare system (pension funds, etc).

It's like those persons walking off of cliffs in cartoons, until they realize they are on air, and suddenly fall. Some people just haven't realized it yet.

>As to the rest of your erudite analysis, no, it was not just the Greek state that prospered and thrived in the time before the crisis. The Greek people also did. *

It's easy to "prosper" on borrowed money (that the state distributes) or easy access to finance (that banks lend as if there's no tomorrow). Even so, the Greek people show a steep decline in job prospects post 2004 or so, and their "prosperity" was not based on anything remotely looking like a viable economic progress. There was an actual rise on living standards in Greece since the 70s or so, and the euro era is the period when that rise was put to a hold, and private loaning and credit card debt went on the rise.

>Indeed, in politics sentiment rules, otherwise countries would (almost) never go to war, or make catastrophic economic and political decisions, such as adopting communism and so on.

Going to war can have several important benefits for a country. That's how most countries made their colonies, controlled trade routes, built empires, secured cheap resources, or expanded on the expense of nearby countries. Going to war is abhorrent and murderous, yes, but not really irrational, that's how much of the western progress was funded.

As for "adopting communism", you're thinking with hindsight. At the moment there was not much for countries to not adopt communism, and for some it was even seen as an improvement on the previous situation (being colonial slaves and protectorates mostly). For some countries, communism was the engine that managed to bring them to the 20th century pronto, including Russia/USSR (they would be cannon fodder for Nazi Germany without the forced industrialization done by the communists) and China (which the new regime organized, united, and brought to the 21st century quite the winning power -- besides, after Mao they use their own version capitalism that has little to do with any historical form or dogma of communism apart from the party rule).

>The easiest thing for the EU would have been to kick us out and towards the end of the peak of the Grexit crisis there were indeed voices that suggested the time might have come for the EU or at least the Eurozone, to go on without us. It didn't happen. Why not?

Because they could still pretend-give money to Greece that's siphoned from the European people to the German and other banks.

This way, Greece nominally pays their debt, the fat cats at the European banks are getting money, German banks are secured from their frivolous lending, the Greek state assets (e.g. profitable airports) can be sold for a penny and Greek economy controlled in order to continue the "bailout". Furthermore, they can all pretend that there's an EU and that the euro experiment has not failed (well, if it wasn't for a similar crisis lurking in most other EU countries, the Brexit, Italy and so on).

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#318
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The opposite is usually lamented in the heavier countries, e.g. here in Germany it is often lamented that a German voters vote is less important than that of a voter in a small country like Luxembourg due to the way EU representation is structured. All sides can lament, but the numbers speak for themselves.

Correct, here is what the numbers say: 'The apportionment of seats is not proportional to each state's population, nor does it reflect any particular mathematical formula; however, it is stated in the treaties that distribution of seats should be "degressively proportional" to the population of the member states. The process can be compared to the composition of the electoral college used to elect the President of th…

Only the European Parliament doesn't take the real decisions.

There's the EC and bureaucratic ad-hoc groups that nobody appointed like the Eurogroup (an informal assembly of eurozone fin-mins with super powers that's not legitimized anywhere officially), the council of the EU (composed by state leaders and making decisions where strong countries like Germany and France have disproportionate influence using lackey satellite countries or debtors they control), etc.

Here's another Wikipedia link for you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_deficit_in_the_Euro...

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Further proof many, many people don't understand democracy and think you're not allowed a voice. People, democracy is not the tyranny of the majority. Quite the opposite actually.

It is not the tyranny of the majority, because a modern democracy protects and respects minorities, and the concerns of the majority are also into account. At least, that's how it should be.

Yes, in an ideal world.

However, "modern democracies" like Switzerland implement tyranny:

http://www.thelocal.ch/20160609/immigrant-family-denied-swis...

http://www.thelocal.ch/20170109/annoying-anti-cow-bell-campa...

(There are more sources for both, in case you don't trust this one)

Direct democracy is good, but we still don't seem to know how to implement it right or make a responsible use of it.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We have free movement of people, A single market includes the free movement of labour, as well as goods and services. Hence, restricting immigration is equivalent to leaving the single market. If we're to have tarriff-free trade with the EU but barriers on migration, that's surely a "protectionist restriction" on British jobs.

EU has free movement of labour and goods but does it have free movement of services I didn't think it did (that's a genuine rather than rhetorical question)

Pretty sure it does, it's one of the "four freedoms": http://ec.europa.eu/growth/single-market/

I got the link from the Wikipedia article, more info here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Single_Market

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