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Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

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Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#281

Post by coldtea »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #96
coldtea wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is such a pity. European Union is (was ?) an incredible achievement. I don't think we realize exactly how improbable uniting Europe around a common destiny and a shared set of values is. Only we never done that. We just allowed for easy border access, united a few laws, and had central bureaucrats and heavier countries step on the throats of lesser ones.

I'm from one of those "lesser" countries - Greece. I can assure you that nobody "stepped on our throat". For years we thrived as part of the EU, until the economic crisis hit and messed it all up. The Germans actually tried to help, in the way they thought was best, and despite appearances of heavy-handedness, nobody tried to force us to leave, which would have been the end of us. If you remember what happened a coup…

>I'm from one of those "lesser" countries - Greece. I can assure you that nobody "stepped on our throat". For years we thrived as part of the EU, until the economic crisis hit and messed it all up.

"Thrived" just meant the Greek state could for a few years borrow money more easily because of the Euro, nothing substantial that one could actually call "thriving". The actual health of the economy (inflated numbers from borrowing aside) was in its worst condition ever.

For the Greek economy it was the beginning of the end, as at the same time, The euro, and the lack of control of its own monetary policy, sealed the inability of Greece to ever repay its debt. And of course made its exports, lackluster even before, collapse completely.

>The Germans actually tried to help, in the way they thought was best

Actually they merely tried to enforce their economic ideology of austerity upon further austerity, totally in spite of dire results and being totally not workable, all the while making billions in the process for the German economy, plus insuring its banks against the crisis with EU money (transferring money from the European public to the financiers).

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/08/11/despite-l...

Greece is now an ex-country on life support giving the semblance of a European country.

>Nobody wanted to harm the Geeks and nobody tried to harm the Greeks

The world is not some hugging and loving place, international politics and finances even more so. Those doing the harm could not care less if they were harming Greeks, Irish, Italians, etc. specifically, so that much is true: they didn't actively try to "harm the Greeks".

It was a matter of pursuing their own financial interests, as always is. The Greek public were just imbeciles in recognizing that, and the Greek politicians where profiting just the same.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#282

Post by abandonliberty »

sjg007 wrote: post #19
matthewmacleod wrote: post #12

This is almost certainly a collosal act of self-harm, and deeply short-sighted. I was desperately hopeful that the whole Brexit situation could be salvaged in some way, and that some way forward for liberalism might be figured out such that the rising tide of populism could be countered. I'm less and less confident about that.

Parliament has to vote on it... might be hope

I'm sorry to say it's false hope. Such an outcome would likely lead to greater ruin.

Just like Trump and the electoral college, if we project the vote into MP constituencies Brexit got 60% [0].

This means that most MPs voting 'No' to Brexit would anger their constituents for Subverting Democracy - one of Theresa May's favorite talking points[1]. This would likely lead to a more extreme/populist government in the next election, and perhaps some internal strife and riots in the meantime.

Who would you rather have at the helm?

[0] http://www.businessinsider.com/nomura-2-charts-show-why-rema... [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=subverting+democracy

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#283

Post by gls2ro »

laingc wrote: post #237
emptyfile wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, which is why the UK, very successfully, blocked every attempt at EU integration and secured opt outs out of Euro and Schengen for itself. As a European, I believe I'm not alone in thinking it's great that the biggest obstacle to EU integration is leaving the EU, we're just all very puzzled as to why considering the UK had the best deal possible in the EU.

And I'm not the only resident of Germany who wishes that we would follow Britain's example. I likely have a biased sample, but amongst my colleagues and friends, I don't know anyone who wants further European integration, and most want out completely. Anecdata cuts both ways.

If I may ask what are your reasons of wanting to get out of EU? I'm interested if possible in an overview of short term and long terms objectives and gains/advantages.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#284

Post by rusk »

raesene6 wrote: post #277
rusk wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's completely my fault, using the terms incorrectly, but you've misunderstood my point. Thus neatly illustrating how slippery language can be. From a legal and constitutional standpoint your current government is indeed "elected" (as is the present "minority government" here in Ireland). However I would posit that from a moral standpoint there should be another election. The public mandate imparted by Brexit is mur…

Ah well any discussion of morals and politics (as practiced in most countries) is unlikely to go well ;o) The problem I see with reverting to a general election is that unless all parties campaign purely on an exact list of what they will and won't do with regards to the EU, the mandate provided would be no clearer than the one derived from the referendum. A general election would mess the EU issue in with things lik…

Indeed, such an election could not be seen as an interpretation of the will of the people purely on Brexit. But Brexit does represent such a seismic event in recent British history that the British people do deserve a say in the government that leads them on from it.

You could for instance see a party campaigning on a platform of making government more democratic for instance, which wouldn't have anything directly to do with Brexit but might give piece of mind as you move onward into the abyss.

Of course with the actual state of all the other parties at the moment (SNP excluded) it's hard to imagine a wildly different result to what you have right now, but I guess in a way it's "the principle of the thing".

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#285

Post by JohnStrange »

NetStrikeForce wrote: post #92
lwhi wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused why my comment has been downvoted. Theresa May was not voted into government. Only 52% of (72.2%) of the population voted for Brexit. Quite a disappointing response.

Further proof many, many people don't understand democracy and think you're not allowed a voice. People, democracy is not the tyranny of the majority. Quite the opposite actually.

It is not the tyranny of the majority, because a modern democracy protects and respects minorities, and the concerns of the majority are also into account. At least, that's how it should be.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#286

Post by gpderetta »

raesene6 wrote: post #273
Chestofdraw wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll tell you what, we can talk about the efficacy of the various leave campaigns when the NHS gets its 350 million a day and we have 'Sovereignty'.

I note that I'm afraid you didn't even attempt to answer my extremely straightforward question. See I'm not a brexiter/leaver/whatever (Personally I think it's a terrible idea), but it's blindingly obvious to me that a lot of leave voters (maybe even the vast majority) thought the main issue was immigration and that Mrs May had a choice either exit the single market, or basically ignore the result of the referendum,…

Soft brexit (i.e. EEA-like access) plus spend the next 10 years figuring out a better exit deal would have been an option.

UK spent 40 year entangling with the EU, disentangling cleanly in 2 years is a pipe dream.

It is still a possibility though; declaring for hard brexit could very well be a negotiating tactic (as in 'nothing left to lose') as May hinted to the possibility of a transitional agreement.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#287

Post by mtarnovan »

youngtaff wrote: post #256
gonvaled wrote: post #162

It is unfortunate that the spotlight is in the UK, and that the EU is not able to bring across the benefits and compromises that membership has and implies. I fear that this failure of communicating clearly to EU citizens (and the rest) what the EU project is, what benefits it has, why we need to compromise in certain areas, is having a strong negative impact in how it is perceived, and can bring about its own demise…

The UK is so selfish that it's the second largest net contributor to the EU budget!

Really? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_rebate

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#288

Post by taway_1212 »

mfukar wrote: post #266
taway_1212 wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, there is no double taxation - but you essentially need to involve yourself with the tax authority of every country you are doing business in. In a real single integrated market, I'd have company registered in country X, serve customers across entire Europe, but file taxes on the entire income in X only. I'm thinking they don't allow that because it would open doors to all kinds of tax optimization for the little…

"involve yourself" in this case is present the tax income declaration to the tax authority in the 2nd (3rd, etc.) country. Hardly a cumbersome experience.

In practice, you need to learn the tax code to find most suitable form of conducting business. For example, in the UK if you know what you're doing, you'll pay ~20% tax on your income as a contractor. If you don't, you can easily end up paying something like 30+%.

Also, there are perpetual costs of having a company registered (such as monthly payments to an accounting company which handles paperwork, health care contributions etc.), so if you move around regularly between a couple different countries, you'll probably need to maintain a legal presence in each one, and thus have these costs multiplied.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#289

Post by laingc »

gls2ro wrote: post #283
laingc wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I'm not the only resident of Germany who wishes that we would follow Britain's example. I likely have a biased sample, but amongst my colleagues and friends, I don't know anyone who wants further European integration, and most want out completely. Anecdata cuts both ways.

If I may ask what are your reasons of wanting to get out of EU? I'm interested if possible in an overview of short term and long terms objectives and gains/advantages.

I don't want to write a thesis here, but hopefully a bullet-pointed list will suffice:

* The EU is not only undemocratic in the sense that the powerful European Commission is unelected, but is in fact antidemocratic in the sense that one generally has to have lost a democratic election in one's own country to be appointed to it.

* The EU places an enormous regulatory drain on its member states, issuing a stifling number of pro-corporate, anti-free-market regulations every year

* Policies such as the Common Agricultural Policy, the Clinical Trials Directive, and the Port Services directive are extremely illiberal policies, introduced to satisfy special interests.

* The EU is in the process of exporting draconian, crushing German-style data protection law to the rest of the continent.

* The European Court of Justice is not only activist, but also highly incompetent, lacking the institutional jurisprudential experience of proper supreme courts, such as those found in the UK.

* The Common Market is not a free trade agreement, it is a customs union. Combined with the EU's inability to negotiate free trade agreements (held up by Italian tomato growers, French vintners, and just about every other special interest wanting protection), this means that export-focussed economies such as Germany's are hampered from engaging with faster-growing economies - and just about every other continent's economy is growing faster than Europe's.

As I said, I don't want to write a thesis here, but these are just a few of the many reasons why I believe that Germany - and almost every other country in Europe - would be better off making its own laws by a democratic process, trading and cooperating freely with its friends and allies, rather than being part of an antidemocratic, supranational bureaucracy.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#290

Post by raverbashing »

abandonliberty wrote: post #279
raverbashing wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"control the borders!!!11" are one of the catch-phrases that make absolutely no sense for people with only a modest understanding of how it actually works But I'm sure to some Brexiters brown people at the streets is the fault of the EU somehow

>brown people at the streets You mean those of Indian descent that have been there 5 generations?

Ah those that speak better English than the natives and their kids have higher scores at school? Haven't you heard immigration ruins the country ;)
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