Earlier quoted context omitted.
GTK is probably the main reason Gimp isn't a serious competitor in professional work, then. I can imagine what monumental task it must be to maintain a cross-platform GUI toolkit, but it's IMO the single most important aspect of Gimp. Let's face it, all the features are there. Maybe 5% of Photoshop's deep ocean of features is actually used by the average user, Gimp can provide almost the complete functionality. Some…
> GTK is probably the main reason Gimp isn't a serious competitor in professional work, then. Xamarin Studio is built using Gtk and actually looks nice on macOS, or at least I have seldom heard people complain about it: https://blog.xamarin.com/the-making-of-xamarin-studio/ I think the problem is that Gimp is understaffed to produce a Photoshop killer with any toolkit.
GIMP – 2016 in review
161–170 of 188 posts
Re: GIMP – 2016 in review
#162Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's as if some of the core GIMP developers and evangelists wear the fact that they have never ever used or know anything about Photoshop and never will as a badge of pride, and they are fanatically dedicated to never sullying themselves by ever even looking at Photoshop or especially listening to any of the complaints from Photoshop users. Any changes to GIMP that make it more like Photoshop, or acknowledgement that…
Its certainly OK for a product to innovate, as GIMP has. But sometimes the differences are gratuitous. That doesn't help with GIMP adoption, because admit it, most folks have some exposure to Photoshop already. Further, GIMP suffers (as many mature products do) from a certain baroque-ness of feature. Its menus and features have grown from someplace less mature, to where they are. And it shows in the clumsy menus that…
That could be me. I think I might have used it though, on a System 6 Mac with a 1-bit black-and-white screen. (resulting opinion: Photoshop doesn't support color)
Re: GIMP – 2016 in review
#163Earlier quoted context omitted.
GIMP indeed just is always there, on all platforms. As a developer my needs are quite modest: editing screenshots, juggling graphics assets, etc. But I do use GIMP at least weekly, and it always delivers. Big thanks for the developers.
> on all platforms I've recently tried GIMP after reading about an update on Hacker News (not this one) and it was an absolute disaster - took forever to start, nothing worked, UI was glitchy, and then I accidentally quit it because I didn't know what the empty, floating window was good for. It's a pity that Gtk apps usually don't really work on macOS, it makes it much more unlikely for us Apple users to contribute o…
Re: GIMP – 2016 in review
#164Re: GIMP – 2016 in review
#165Earlier quoted context omitted.
I paint for a living, and I much prefer Krita to Photoshop nowadays. It's really very good. For my purposes it matches Photoshop's features plus more, such as the guides (vanishing point, ellipses etc), symmetrical painting etc. That said, from reading the forums, the dev team seems chronically understaffed to the point that some of them are less than polite to users. This worries me a bit. If anyone has been looking…
Understaffed is an understatement. We have been able to fund one full-time developer, Dmitry, for the fourth year now. I am the maintainer, and I'm currently working full-time on Krita because I got burned out on my paid job, but that's not really funded. There are a few other people who help answering questions and triaging bug reports and things -- and that is it. We try to keep up on tumblr, reddit, twitter, faceb…
Now that you mention it, I think your successful kickstarters left me with the impression you had funding and therefore workforce to a much greater degree than is actually the case. Is another fundraiser coming up? I didn't participate before, as I only found out about them after the fact...
Re: GIMP – 2016 in review
#166Earlier quoted context omitted.
There's a push by some GNOME community people to get a good story going for using Rust with GNOME tech, which could be applied to GIMP, being based also on GObject and GTK+. Hopefully that will work out.
While this would be awesome (and progress is underway), what GTK+ needs even more than additional language bindings is documentation and literature. I considered Rust for my current project, but passed it on due to the frontier nature of the GTK+ Rust bindings. I ended up using C++ instead, and even there the documentation is extremely limited. You get a basic intro that shows the most trivial use of the important wi…
It took me weeks to figure this out when I learned GObject/GTK+ back in the early 2000s. I ended up writing my own tutorial on the subject due to the existing documentation being so utterly lacking (https://gitlab.com/rleigh/ogcalc is its current home). I later ported all of my GObject-C code to C++; GObject has few redeeming qualities. It's a good example of "just because you can, doesn't mean you should". Yes, you can do OO in C; no, it's not a good idea. It's the wrong tool for the job, and you should use a more appropriate tools.
Manually constructing vtables, manually casting all type information away, manually propagating exceptions and creating closures etc. It doesn't take long to realise that this is all pointless make-work. Just use C++. It has classes, inheritance, exceptions and proper type safety, all built in. What takes several hours with GObject-C takes just a few minutes with C++, and... there are zero bugs. With GObject-C, all that hand-crafting of vtables and other fiddly details are a source of subtle bugs; the compiler won't pick up on a lot of stuff you can get wrong while the C++ compiler does it all for you. This is something which becomes increasingly bad when you try to refactor--it may have been correct and then be subtly incorrect, and you won't realise. When I ported all this to C++, it uncovered a few nasty and obscure bugs which had been hidden for years.
All this adds up to why many GTK+ projects lack manpower. Writing, maintaining and extending these codebases are a Sisyphean task. Unfortunately, the "C at all costs for all situations" mentality driving much of this (and I was guilty of such an attitude before I discovered that C was not the be-all and end-all of languages) prevents them being moved to more maintainable languages despite it being pretty straightforward to do so (I've done it for several codebases).
Back in the mid-2000s I was employed to write a commercial application using GTK+; I used GTKmm and the other C++ bindings. Even then, it was an exercise in pain; bugs galore at all levels and poor or nonexistent documentation; there's a reason lots of developers were and are abandoning it for Qt, and the documentation and quality of implementation are key factors in that. It's unfortunate because it didn't have to be that way. But in reality, using GTK+ doesn't make economic sense--it takes longer to produce something which is of inferior quality and harder to maintain, so it's both more expensive in developer time, and it's a poorer product for the end user.
While it's now years since I used it seriously, I look at the current dropping of piles of functionality and APIs which have been around for two decades, and I wonder if they have even the slightest concern for the two decades of third-party code using this stuff. It's rhetorical; they clearly don't. Sad that hacking on the toolkit for its own sake has a much higher priority than using it to develop actual applications, but that's what it is.
Re: GIMP – 2016 in review
#167Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Any changes to GIMP that make it more like Photoshop, or acknowledgement that there's anything about Photoshop that GIMP should emulate, are considered anathema. Not really, no. Whenever people ask us to do smth like what Photoshop does, all we ask back is to explain why it is better. Perhaps you should answer that question every once in a while?
Have you actually used Photoshop yourself, or spent any time watching the millions of free Photoshop tutorial videos available on youtube? If not, then why not? And also: why throw down the gauntlet about never changing the name from GIMP, unless your point is to offend people for being "politically correct", and marginalize your project so nobody will ever consider using it in a professional context, on purpose? htt…
I've been Photoshop user since 1997.
> why throw down the gauntlet about never changing the name from GIMP, unless your point is to offend people
I'm not trained to deal with people who apparently seek to be offended.
Re: GIMP – 2016 in review
#168Earlier quoted context omitted.
> And it shows in the clumsy menus that make sense if you went along for the ride but for a 1st-timer are just confusing. Would you mind being a wee bit more specific? :)
Sure! Running a script is under 'Filters' for some reason. To undo a brush, that's under 'Windows' inexplicably. Filters like Feather and Distort are under 'Select'. Keyboard shortcuts are under 'Edit'. The Plugin Browser tool is under 'Help' My favorite: 'File' has 'Open' above 'Open as Layers', as if you'd more commonly want to destroy all your image layer info when opening an image file. In fact, with 'flatten' th…
You mean the script console? Where would you rather see it?
> To undo a brush, that's under 'Windows' inexplicably.
Er... I'm not sure what you mean here. Could you elaborate please?
> Filters like Feather and Distort are under 'Select'.
Well, they are not exactly filters, and they affect the selection rather than actual pixel data.
> Keyboard shortcuts are under 'Edit'.
We don't have a Settings menu :)
> The Plugin Browser tool is under 'Help'
Where would you place it?
> My favorite: 'File' has 'Open' above 'Open as Layers', as if you'd more commonly want to destroy all your image layer info when opening an image file.
I'm not sure I understand your reasoning.
> In fact, with 'flatten' there's no need for 'Open' at all?
Why?
Re: GIMP – 2016 in review
#169Three words why The Gimp isn't taken seriously by anyone who uses Photoshop: "Non-Destructive Editing" [Oh yes. The interface is awful, too]
> The interface is awful, too It's really a shame. As an example, it's been more than a decade and they still haven't fixed the utterly absurd "layer boundaries" system that it has. There's a reason no other image editor does that, and it's because it makes no sense . (To elaborate, every layer in GIMP has a defined "boundary rectangle" which cannot be drawn outside of.)
My assumption is that there is at least an image boundary, and just GIMP allows layers to have a different boundary to the image. But if I didn't allow this, then every time I moved a layer, it would get cropped to the image boundary.
How does not having a layer boundary work?
Re: GIMP – 2016 in review
#170Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sure! Running a script is under 'Filters' for some reason. To undo a brush, that's under 'Windows' inexplicably. Filters like Feather and Distort are under 'Select'. Keyboard shortcuts are under 'Edit'. The Plugin Browser tool is under 'Help' My favorite: 'File' has 'Open' above 'Open as Layers', as if you'd more commonly want to destroy all your image layer info when opening an image file. In fact, with 'flatten' th…
> Running a script is under 'Filters' for some reason. You mean the script console? Where would you rather see it? > To undo a brush, that's under 'Windows' inexplicably. Er... I'm not sure what you mean here. Could you elaborate please? > Filters like Feather and Distort are under 'Select'. Well, they are not exactly filters, and they affect the selection rather than actual pixel data. > Keyboard shortcuts are under…
And note I am using Gimp 2. So these things may have changed.
Scripts: I would imagine these would be under Tools.
A quick survey of apps show that options and settings are usually under Tools. Or Files.
And the Plugin Browser is an odd bird. Its details I struggle with when writing scripts. Its reasonable that a database could be under Help. I need it when I'm writing scripts, and no other time. And there's nowhere to go from there - no 'copy example to cut buffer' etc. I'm accustomed to viewing it from a Script console, so I can construct each argument. But not a thing I'm ever going to browse like other Help items.
Admittedly, nested menus is a fairly opaque way to categorize features. Everything is hidden unless you 'open the little door' like an Advent calendar. You can't search for anything without just doing a click-fest down the row. Its a shortcoming of the paradigm. Why others turned to the hated 'ribbon' etc - to make feature-hunting more transparent.