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Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

nytimes.com

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Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#601

Post by macspoofing »

colechristensen wrote: post #222
mhurron wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Classifying material should not be a way for the Government to hide corruption and wrongdoing. Whistle blowing is the only way that prevents that. Chelsea Manning acted on her conscience, which is the best we can expect anyone to do. The governments punishment was to prevent that happening again.

Snowden released a large volume of information to well qualified journalists who very carefully combed through the data to find the things most relevant and important for the American public to know. Information that was legitimately classified and had no whistleblowing value simply wasn't released. Manning released a large volume of information to the public en masse with no regard to it's whistleblowing value. Some…

>Snowden released a large volume of information to well qualified journalists who very carefully combed through the data

Snowden stole a huge amount of highly classified information and gave a tiny amount to journalists to comb through. Now we only have his word that none of it went to Russian intelligence though all signs point to the contrary.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#602

Post by wtbob »

adrienne wrote: post #351
akjainaj wrote: post #53

Why can the US president meddle with the sentence of a convict? Isn't that against the separation of powers? Not that I have anything against this guy Manning in particular, just asking why is this "tolerable" in a democracy. Isn't it a risk, that the president can pardon whoever he wants?

Manning is a woman, not a guy. It is fucking disgusting how many people here want to misgender her.

> Manning is a woman, not a guy.

No, no he's not. He has never had, nor will he ever have, a period. He will never worry about ovarian cancer. His medical prognosis will be most like that of an average man than that of an average woman for any particular issue. He's not experienced the fundamental biological issues which all women experience, and he never will, while he has experienced, and will continue to experience, the fundamental biological issues which all men experience (and if he has himself castrated, then he will experience those biological issues all adult-onset castrati experience).

It's misgendering him to ignore those fundamental physical facts and pretend that he's a woman.

As I've noted elsewhere, it might be kind to refer to him face-to-face as a woman in order to avoid distress. But there's no need for those of us talking about him, in a forum he is unlikely to encounter, to pretend that the facts are not what they are.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#603

Post by tropo »

adrienne wrote: post #499
akjainaj wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No offence, but you really sound angered and I feel somehow responsible--different people have different political views about all issues (everything is politics, after all) and we have to live with that fact. You are not going to convince others by insulting them. Also, HN is not the place to try and convince anybody to think the way you do, because that leads to flamewars (if you have an opinion, you'll stick to it…

Yes, it's true that everything is politics! Misgendering people is transphobic politics! It shows a tremendous lack of respect for people and it's deeply offensive; that doesn't change because it's done in a "civil" tone.

Roughly half the population of the USA disagrees with you.

Not only that, but you show "a tremendous lack of respect for" them. Don't you think they might find that "deeply offensive"?

You are so easily offended, yet you care not for the fact that you offend those on the other side of this issue. You are full of hatred for them.

This is hypocrisy.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#604

Post by notpc »

kidcoach wrote: post #586
notpc wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's troubling that calling for witch hunts and firings over political opinions is okay, but a direct tone is a problem. Maybe our society would be better if that was flipped around.

Society already is that "flipped around" scenario, there are thousands of places on the web where you can yell and call people idiots/fascists/libtards/whatever. Have you ever seen it be productive ? Change people's minds on important issues ? No. To effect change you have to have respect and compassion for the person who's mind you are trying to change.

I didn't call anyone an idiot, a fascist, a libtard, or a 'whatever'. Good try at a straw man though.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#605

Post by wtbob »

sctb wrote: post #348
adventist wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if we want to be correct, he is not a she. Science.

Being correct cuts both ways, I'm afraid. If you'd like to offer an opinion on the matter we have to ask that it have some basis in reality. (This is not satisfied by uttering "Science.")

The reality is that Mr. Manning possesses an X and a Y chromosome, that he has male genitalia, that he is at risk for prostate cancer, that he will never have ovarian cancer, that he was able to father children but was never able and will never be able to bear them: the reality is that he is a man, regardless of what he thinks.

I'm not saying that rudely, or cruelly. I think that his condition — to feel to the core of his being that he is a woman, when every objective fact says that he is a man — must be truly horrible to experience, and that he deserves our sympathy and our kindness. To feel so alienated from one's own body is not something I can relate to, but it must be terribly unpleasant. As I've noted, I think it would probably be kind to treat him as a woman, and I would probably do so myself, since there's no reason for me to cause him any more distress than his condition already does.

But the objective reality is misaligned with his perception.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#606

Post by flukus »

adrienne wrote: post #404
grzm wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an issue you (along with many others) are very passionate about. An earlier comment you made I think describes this particularly eloquently and civilly. She was always a woman; she just presented as a man for many years. The NYT presented the information quite well when they said, "Ms. Manning was still known as Bradley Manning when she deployed with her unit to Iraq in late 2009." https://news.ycombinator.co…

It's not an "opinion" about which people can reasonably be on different pages in 2017. It's transphobic and disgusting. And of course i'm getting downvoted for speaking out about it, because this is, after all, Hacker News.

> It's not an "opinion" about which people can reasonably be on different pages in 2017

So by what objective standard is Manning a man/woman? Her gender is just her opinion, so why can't others have different opinions?

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#607

Post by adrienne »

tropo wrote: post #603
adrienne wrote: post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's true that everything is politics! Misgendering people is transphobic politics! It shows a tremendous lack of respect for people and it's deeply offensive; that doesn't change because it's done in a "civil" tone.

Roughly half the population of the USA disagrees with you. Not only that, but you show "a tremendous lack of respect for" them. Don't you think they might find that "deeply offensive"? You are so easily offended, yet you care not for the fact that you offend those on the other side of this issue. You are full of hatred for them. This is hypocrisy.

Respect for people's identity and humanity is not negotiable. Failing to live up to this standard is called "bigotry".

The words "bigotry" and "transphobia" aren't identity labels, they're accurate descriptions of behavior. Respect for people's behavior is an entirely different matter from respect for people's identity, and people who act on their bigotry (by, for instance, misgendering trans people) aren't entitled to my respect. That is, in fact, not hypocrisy.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#608

Post by Natsu »

sjy wrote: post #544
Natsu wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's understandable, but Manning's sentence has been unusually cruel in its execution, and unjust when compared to other people who did without being punished at all. See, e.g. the conduct that Colin Powell described in this email: https://wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/emailid/30324 [EDIT: click to view the PDF to find the actual content.]

Are you saying that Colin Powell should have been imprisoned for using a PDA against the wishes of the NSA/CIA?

I'm saying that all people should get equal justice under law.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#609

Post by stale2002 »

peteretep wrote: post #524
kafkaesq wrote: post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who didn't already know all of that in broad strokes? I guess that argument could be applied to high crimes and corruption of all sorts, just about anywhere: "We already know about that in broad strokes. What good does it do to air all that dirty laundry before the general public?"

> high crimes Which these weren't. There's about as much public benefit in knowing how exactly Gaddafi was corrupt as there is in known just how many women Tom Cruise has slept with. cf: Public Interest

I am sure that the people that were getting murdered by Gaddafi disagree.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#610

Post by adrienne »

grzm wrote: post #566
adrienne wrote: post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If people are downvoting me for incivilty, they should also be downvoting all the misgendering, which is fundamentally uncivil no matter how calm and even the tone in which it is done.

I skimmed the comments in this thread, searching for references to "he" or "they" (and the instance of "guy" I found) in reference to Manning. I found 3 "he", 1 "guy", and one "they". All were downvoted, two of them flagged dead. Admittedly this isn't comprehensive: there are currently over 500 comments. This doesn't include discussion of the use of "they" in general, or reflection on the use of "they" when the gende…

User 'wtbob has posted three comments in this thread full of really appalling transphobia and they don't seem to be getting downvoted. Meanwhile i'm down 30+ points.
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