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How much does employee turnover really cost?

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Re: How much does employee turnover really cost?

#261
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd add 0) don't have a shitty code base. Nothing hampers my productivity (and the businesses) like technical debt.

How does that help someone who has been there for 2,3,4,5 years, since they created that.

Well, it might help their job security (no one else knows how it runs).

Re: How much does employee turnover really cost?

#262
post #136
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was strongly influenced in my thinking by Jason Cohen's "Rich vs King" article, he talks about the S-curve of wealth utilization. Once you hit a few million in the bank, you have enough money to fund a reasonably lavish lifestyle, without working, for the rest of your life. At that point, how do you motivate someone?

I make low 6 figures doing network security. If I hit 200k, literally the only thing you could do to motivate me would be to treat me well and give me interesting things to do. Fortunately, my employer already does both of those. I just wish it wasn't almost a requirement to leave in order to get a decent raise. Note: I'm not expecting to make $200k in a technical role as a security analyst any time soon, its just hy…

I see $100k USD being thrown around as a large salary in discussions, and compared to the median US household income it is. But people have been using this figure as a convenient anchor point in arguments for decades now, and if you look at inflation, $100k should not be considered a high salary today, and if you are a programmer you should demand more:

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=US$100000+2017+in+1980+...

$100,000 today would have been $33,000 in 1980, $53,000 in 1990, $70,000 in 2000, and only $84,000 in 2007.

You are totally right about the $200k mark feeling comfortable. $200k is the new $100k.

Re: How much does employee turnover really cost?

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes, exactly the one. personal note, it's bad form to have published the candidate's salary. at the 3 mil level, not even Google has many employees making that. probably narrowed it down to a dozen or so people since they even mentioned that it was a "programmer" (which I interpret as high IC level).

What does ic mean?

Individual contributor as opposed to people manager

Re: How much does employee turnover really cost?

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes, exactly the one. personal note, it's bad form to have published the candidate's salary. at the 3 mil level, not even Google has many employees making that. probably narrowed it down to a dozen or so people since they even mentioned that it was a "programmer" (which I interpret as high IC level).

What does ic mean?

Individual Contributor

Re: How much does employee turnover really cost?

#265
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd add 0) don't have a shitty code base. Nothing hampers my productivity (and the businesses) like technical debt.

How does that help someone who has been there for 2,3,4,5 years, since they created that.

Much like raises, Devs can get strung along by promises to clean up or rewrite in the future, or often by their own thinking that they can slowly fix things (been down that road enough myself).

Also, it makes it possible to get to the point where you are retaining people for 2+ years. If there is a lot of turnover under that then it's probably the companies fault.

Re: How much does employee turnover really cost?

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes, exactly the one. personal note, it's bad form to have published the candidate's salary. at the 3 mil level, not even Google has many employees making that. probably narrowed it down to a dozen or so people since they even mentioned that it was a "programmer" (which I interpret as high IC level).

What does ic mean?

Individual Contributor.

Re: How much does employee turnover really cost?

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think that, but now I make $500k and I think you could convince me to work on something I like slightly less well for $700k. Once I achieve financial independence, it will be different, but until then, changes that significantly impact the distance to that goal are motivating. The interesting thing though is that you wouldn't really want to entice me that way, because I'd guess you'd get a worse product out…

If you're making $500k and not financially independent, or about to be very soon, you are doing something wrong, I think.

It only makes you independent for chunks of 6 months per month worked. You still have to work some 5-10 years before you are independent for the rest of your life.

Re: How much does employee turnover really cost?

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because of stories like this I am generally against publicly praising individual employees. Whenever you do that there is gonna be somebody who did something great you don't know about and aren't praising. There might even be people who think that what the person you are praising did something bad. I remember a all-hands meeting where somebody got praised for working all weekend. Later in private several people were…

> Later in private several people were disgruntled and claimed the person only had to do so because they had messed it up before despite being told to use a different approach repeatedly. This sounds like every tech company ever. I used to excitedly watch youtube videos about the extreme measures startups took to scale to "massive" amounts of traffic while undergoing huge growth spurts. Now I just kind of roll my eye…

Well, "they just didn't know," is different than, "they were directly warned and didn't listen because they though they knew better." In the latter case, working all weekend to fix the mistake isn't necessarily praise-worthy.

Re: How much does employee turnover really cost?

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He was expecting to be paid the same as his colleagues and the industry standard. That sounds like a fair expectation, irrespective of the percentage raise that implied.

Then he shouldn't have taken the low offer to begin with. That's on him at least as much as the employer. He's free to leave of course, but complaining about it after the fact?

I don't feel complaining about being paid under market rate is a strange thing. 20% raises are not ludicrous in any way, if this prevents an employee from leaving.

Re: How much does employee turnover really cost?

#270
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always wondered how employers measure "market rate". If there were a reliable public source of market rate, negotiations would be much simpler, and they aren't. And presumably the managers themselves aren't actively interviewing at other companies to see what they'd get offered. So I think the only good source of market rate is people (either candidates or current employees asking for counteroffers), and if you'…

We buy market data from two sources every year. They get their data by collecting it from the companies that buy their data. Obviously that's not perfect, but it's more objective than most other methods. That hardest part is figuring out which generic categories match our specific positions, since every company in the survey has different definitions and requirements. Our employees seem pretty happy with the results,…

Do you use The Employers' Association by any chance?

I used to work for a company that used their data. The reports they provided did not have any technical positions included. There was no transparency on their process.

Comparing those numbers to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the salaries for anyone doing technical work were below market rate. https://www.bls.gov/bls/blswage.htm

BLS data is transparently provided and very specific.

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