How much does employee turnover really cost? • Hacker News Board

Re: How much does employee turnover really cost?

#251

Post by ajmurmann » Wed, Jan 18, 2017, 2:34 AM UTC

pavel_lishin wrote: post #238

ajmurmann wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because of stories like this I am generally against publicly praising individual employees. Whenever you do that there is gonna be somebody who did something great you don't know about and aren't praising. There might even be people who think that what the person you are praising did something bad. I remember a all-hands meeting where somebody got praised for working all weekend. Later in private several people were…

I don't think I agree; I think that your examples show that it's important to know your employees' accomplishments, and to praise people accurately. Public praise matters; I like it when my managers and coworkers acknowledge good work I do, and it's nice hearing that my coworkers are doing good work, too. Why should we all labor in the shadow? Why should we be afraid of praise?

I don't think that this means that we have to labor in the shadows. Typically people notice pretty well who is competent, who puts in effort and who actually gets work done. In a healthy organization that also will get acknowledged organically in all kinds of ways. High performers will be asked for help by others, people insist that they will be invited to meetings or that their opinion will be asked on certain matters. We shouldn't be afraid of praise but of awkwardly praising a subset of people in a all hands meeting where we might miss people who did good work and now will feel that their work isn't acknowledged. This also easily gets political. You have one manager who judges their employees wrong and their reports who did questionable work get praised at the all hands. Maybe they were recommended for praise although there manager knew they didn't really deserve it but needed done if their reports to also be mentioned. It frequently also leads to a hero coder culture. Someone who stays up all night and implements a feature that management wants really badly in a hard to maintain and buggy fashion will get praised at all hands. People who end up fixing the mess won't. Very frustrating for people who fixed it. Obviously this will kick off a feedback cycle leading to more and more all nighters producing crappy code.

Re: How much does employee turnover really cost?

#252

Post by trome » Wed, Jan 18, 2017, 2:39 AM UTC

TuringNYC wrote: post #247

_yosefk wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing few would book a management consultant simply telling to pay people more money - consultants who want a job instead have to explain how to motivate for free. But the people who share a lot of the blame for this idiocy and who have no good excuse are "heterodox economists" and TED talk presenters telling us how money doesn't motivate people past a certain point, or how it actually makes people less creati…

I would probably agree that "money doesn't motivate people past a certain point"...except when the cost of housing goes up every year. It is not like the extra money most people seek is more and more vacation money -- most are just trying to keep up with rents.

I'm at this training with a developer from South America who just moved to the US, and holy moly he got screwed over. He is earning $15/hr writing PHP for this small company in an expensive area ($1350/month for 1 bed & 1 bath) with a broad non-compete and $4k that he will have to pay back if he leaves within the next 12 months for this training.

I know the training itself is free (they actually are giving us a few grand in credit for going), and hotels, flights, etc are under $1k, so this is a super sweet deal for his company.

Re: How much does employee turnover really cost?

#253

Post by jsudhams » Wed, Jan 18, 2017, 2:39 AM UTC

phaus wrote: post #136

beat wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was strongly influenced in my thinking by Jason Cohen's "Rich vs King" article, he talks about the S-curve of wealth utilization. Once you hit a few million in the bank, you have enough money to fund a reasonably lavish lifestyle, without working, for the rest of your life. At that point, how do you motivate someone?

I make low 6 figures doing network security. If I hit 200k, literally the only thing you could do to motivate me would be to treat me well and give me interesting things to do. Fortunately, my employer already does both of those. I just wish it wasn't almost a requirement to leave in order to get a decent raise. Note: I'm not expecting to make $200k in a technical role as a security analyst any time soon, its just hy…

Would you now take 200k job but kind of okay project not very interesting? That is what we are talking. BTW, You can make 200k soon depending on how good you are in the security domain

Re: How much does employee turnover really cost?

#254

Post by jimbokun » Wed, Jan 18, 2017, 2:41 AM UTC

obstinate wrote: post #225

phaus wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I make low 6 figures doing network security. If I hit 200k, literally the only thing you could do to motivate me would be to treat me well and give me interesting things to do. Fortunately, my employer already does both of those. I just wish it wasn't almost a requirement to leave in order to get a decent raise. Note: I'm not expecting to make $200k in a technical role as a security analyst any time soon, its just hy…

I used to think that, but now I make $500k and I think you could convince me to work on something I like slightly less well for $700k. Once I achieve financial independence, it will be different, but until then, changes that significantly impact the distance to that goal are motivating. The interesting thing though is that you wouldn't really want to entice me that way, because I'd guess you'd get a worse product out…

If you're making $500k and not financially independent, or about to be very soon, you are doing something wrong, I think.

Re: How much does employee turnover really cost?

#255

Post by jimbokun » Wed, Jan 18, 2017, 2:43 AM UTC

milliondollar wrote: post #121

beat wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money doesn't motivate people past, oh, a half million or so a year, maybe.

Exactly yes. I used to make over a million a year as a big 3 partner in management consulting. I dialed back to half time and am UNBELIEVABLY happy!

Is that because you saved enough making a million a year you can now afford to work only half time and absorb the pay cut?

Re: How much does employee turnover really cost?

#256

Post by strken » Wed, Jan 18, 2017, 2:45 AM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #227

strken wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a point where salary stops meaning increased consumption, and starts meaning increased control - not control in the narrow sense that "Rich vs King" discusses, but in the broader sense of being able to push your ideas. Want to cure polio, go to Mars, put LED lighting in every home in Africa, fund research into fusion reactors, build flying cars, or push VR into the mainstream? You'd better have some cash.

"Want to cure polio, go to Mars, put LED lighting in every home in Africa, fund research into fusion reactors, build flying cars, or push VR into the mainstream? You'd better have some cash." That might have been more accurately stated as: "Want to hire people to cure polio, go to Mars, put LED lighting in every home in Africa, fund research into fusion reactors, build flying cars, or push VR into the mainstream? You…

I think it's a bit more complicated than that. Books can't travel to Mars - they can't even move - and yet without the influence of creative works such as books, far fewer people would even want to go in the first place. The relationship seems symbiotic rather than confrontational.

That being said, if Bill Gates wants to cure polio, he should spend his money on immunisations rather than artist workshops and publishing houses. Someone in the chain between thought and deed needs to apply human effort to the problem, and when the effort required is massive, the easiest way to coordinate it is by buying it.

Re: How much does employee turnover really cost?

#257

Post by megablast » Wed, Jan 18, 2017, 2:45 AM UTC

flukus wrote: post #204

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #84

Managers, here me now. 1) Money is a factor because my job is difficult. 2) Up to date technology is important because I want to build interesting products. As a developer, these are my motivations.

I'd add 0) don't have a shitty code base. Nothing hampers my productivity (and the businesses) like technical debt.

How does that help someone who has been there for 2,3,4,5 years, since they created that.

Re: How much does employee turnover really cost?

#258

Post by jimbokun » Wed, Jan 18, 2017, 2:47 AM UTC

at-fates-hands wrote: post #188

enraged_camel wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it does, actually. Not because it leads to any noticeable quality of life improvement, but because at those levels it becomes a pissing contest with other high-earners. Some rich people care a LOT about making more than other rich people in their social/work circle.

To your point, I remember 50cent (the rapper) talking shortly after he made $400 million on his Vitamin water investment. He said he ran into some Coca-Cola executives after they purchased the company and he was sort of crowing about all the money they had just made him. I guess two of the executives were like, "Huh, $400 million, not a bad start Curtis. Let us know once you get in the $800 million or even the billio…

Meh, he could have replied "let me know when you have a stadium full of people screaming your name."

Re: How much does employee turnover really cost?

#259

Post by EpicEng » Wed, Jan 18, 2017, 2:48 AM UTC

mavelikara wrote: post #246

EpicEng wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Expecting a 20% raise after six months is ludicrous.

He was expecting to be paid the same as his colleagues and the industry standard. That sounds like a fair expectation, irrespective of the percentage raise that implied.

Then he shouldn't have taken the low offer to begin with. That's on him at least as much as the employer. He's free to leave of course, but complaining about it after the fact?

Re: How much does employee turnover really cost?

#260

Post by citizens » Wed, Jan 18, 2017, 2:53 AM UTC

ionwake wrote: post #245

withdavidli wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes, exactly the one. personal note, it's bad form to have published the candidate's salary. at the 3 mil level, not even Google has many employees making that. probably narrowed it down to a dozen or so people since they even mentioned that it was a "programmer" (which I interpret as high IC level).

What does ic mean?

Individual contributor (basically non-manager)