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Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

nytimes.com

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Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#541

Post by hackinthebochs »

etjossem wrote: post #475
hackinthebochs wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of that is true as far as I'm aware. Do you have a source that Manning knew of the video ahead of time?

You betcha. From "Facts regarding the unauthorized storage and disclosure of the 12 July 2007 aerial weapons team or AW team video", a statement by Manning to the US Army: The video depicted several individuals being engaged by an aerial weapons team. At first I did not consider the video very special, as I have viewed countless other war porn type videos depicting combat. However, the recording of audio comments by…

Well I read his statement and its definitely interesting. It doesn't really help his case though. Some of his actions he was acting as a whistleblower (releasing videos of civilian deaths), other actions he was acting as someone who simply felt information should be leaked (diplomatic cables and such). The problem is that these were separate acts and so while he may have been a whistleblower for some of the releases, the others were plain leaking classified info. One doesn't absolve the other.

I can accept that the whistleblower label isn't completely incorrect, but the problem is that people use it in place of leaker in an effort to establish moral justification for all his leaks. He wasn't kept in prison for 7 years because he was a whistleblower, it was because he was a leaker. But he was also a whistleblower.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#543

Post by hackinthebochs »

paraxisi wrote: post #469
hackinthebochs wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you feel a whistleblower who also causes unrelated data to be leaked "doesn't count," Again with the mischaracterizations! You should stop that. I feel someone who had no knowledge or suspicion of wrongdoing and no intention to just reveal wrongdoing does not count as a whistleblower. Pretty simple.

>I feel someone who had no knowledge or suspicion of wrongdoing and no intention to just reveal wrongdoing does not count as a whistleblower. Pretty simple. Intelligence analyst, no knowledge or suspicion... uhhhh what?

Well "wrongdoing" is a little bit too generic. What I meant was breaking the law (or some severely immoral acts). His opinion regarding the diplomatic cable doesn't justify releasing it and claiming he's a whistleblower.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#544

Post by sjy »

Natsu wrote: post #125
rthomas6 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have mixed feelings on this. Manning did commit a crime. They were entrusted with classified information and they released it on purpose. For all of the corruption and wrongdoing the release of those cables uncovered, didn't it also do things like give away the positions of some undercover agents? And harm US diplomatic relations with other countries? Look at it from the POV of the government: How could they not pu…

That's understandable, but Manning's sentence has been unusually cruel in its execution, and unjust when compared to other people who did without being punished at all. See, e.g. the conduct that Colin Powell described in this email: https://wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/emailid/30324 [EDIT: click to view the PDF to find the actual content.]

Are you saying that Colin Powell should have been imprisoned for using a PDA against the wishes of the NSA/CIA?

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#545

Post by hackinthebochs »

NamTaf wrote: post #484
hackinthebochs wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Irrelevant when it comes to whistleblowing and legality. The government could not function if people were justified in releasing all information they disagreed with. Surely the set of information related to actions that no one disagrees with is empty or nearly so.

I don't think it's as black and white as that. Maybe the NSA spying on some overseas entities isn't strictly illegal. But to understand the bigger picture of their all-encompassing reach and sheer pervasiveness better emphasises their wrongdoings on US soil because it helps explain why the NSA's general mentalities of 'we have the right to collect ALL of the information' and 'we are above the law' exist. Am I saying…

I agree with you. I don't have a clear opinion of Snowden. The point was just that those who try to claim he was just blowing the whistle and therefore shouldn't be prosecuted or pardoned are missing the point of whistleblowing with respect to legal protections.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#546

Post by grzm »

etjossem wrote: post #529
grzm wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly believe the majority of the downvotes are because of tone, not position. As for hate comments in response to any of 'adrienne's in this thread, I see three that are very uncivil and have been flagged dead (and won't appear unless you have showdead on). Another is arguably uncivil and has also received a net negative votes. If you have a separate tally, please point it out. That's not to say all of the down…

I am not on board with categorically downvoting incivility, even on that last bastion of civil discourse we call HN. While we may feel uncomfortable hearing from someone who is upset, it's hard to deny that we notice them more - and that can be very important for those whose voice isn't very loud in the community otherwise. To the empathetic, an uncivil outcry can serve as a stinging reminder that their behavior has…

Thanks for the MLK quote! I agree with the spirit of it, and personally struggle to understand where the balance is between order and justice. though I think there's a meaningful distinction to be made between "set a timetable for another man's freedom" and trying to figure out what ways are effective in making change. I'm not encouraging anyone to wait. I'm encouraging people to do what's effective. MLK was also very good at figuring out effective methods of promoting change, and is well known for non-violent civil disobedience. He's also well known for his eloquence. I'm not a scholar of his speeches and writings, but I'm not aware of cases where he was uncivil in his language. Happy to be educated otherwise.

And with respect to uncivil outcry, there may indeed be a place for it. If it's repeated to the point where it ends up being effectively ignored and dismissed, does it still serve the purpose of reminding people that there are those who are offended? I personally don't think so.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#547

Post by nerfhammer »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #539
andrewflnr wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She had this much control over what WikiLeaks would do: she could have given them less.

How much time do you think someone on active duty in Iraq has to sort through data?

Manning was on leave at the time FWIW

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#548

Post by sjy »

Natsu wrote: post #302
the_duke wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a list of emails that contain actual unfavorable/damning information?

Yes, although IMHO it's not a very good one. Some of these should be taken with salt - http://www.mostdamagingwikileaks.com/

For example, #6 claims that 'Hillary's campaign' wants an 'unaware and compliant citizenry,' on the basis of an unsolicited email to Podesta using that phrase to describe Trump's campaign strategy!

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#549

Post by [deleted] »

3legcat wrote: post #534
mhurron wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Classifying material should not be a way for the Government to hide corruption and wrongdoing. Whistle blowing is the only way that prevents that. Chelsea Manning acted on her conscience, which is the best we can expect anyone to do. The governments punishment was to prevent that happening again.

"Chelsea Manning acted on her conscience" Acting on her conscience does not make what she did the right thing to do. For example, the 2 men behind the boston marathon bombing, did what they did based on their conscience. Did that make what they did right?

[deleted]

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#550

Post by hackinthebochs »

sp332 wrote: post #471
hackinthebochs wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Judging by the sensitivity of the documents is not how you judge the ethics of it. That by chance the damage from the leak wasn't a lot worse does not count in Manning's favor.

That doesn't make sense to me. Not every document is equally damaging. The punishment should fit the crime.

But the crime should be determined the action, not the chance outcome. The alternative is that the same exact action result in wildly different punishments due only to chance. This is unjust. People who have the same exact mental state and perform the same action should have the same punishment. If I punch someone in a fight and that person hits their head on the ground and dies, I should not get 10 years in prison simply due to the chance occurrence of him dying, while everyone else gets probation for getting in a fist fight where everyone walks away. The punishments should be exactly the same. The sentencing just should take into consideration the chance that someone dies and be applied evenly.
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