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Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

nytimes.com

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Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#341

Post by hendersoon »

dragonwriter wrote: post #332
hendersoon wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no record of any individual being physically harmed, but the leaked diplomatic cables were highly embarrassing, hurt the interests of the US, and were completely unjustified. They weren't exposing malfeasance or war crimes. They should not have been released. Manning did it wrong, Snowden did it right.

> Manning did it wrong, Snowden did it right. AFAIK, both Manning and Snowden released large quantities of information without reviewing all of it in detail for public interest vs. potential harm, and released it not to the public but to third parties that managed public release. The difference is that Manning released it to Assange and Snowden released it to more responsible journalists.

Yes, that is completely correct.

Snowden released his information to journalists who carefully vetted each item for newsworthiness with the participation of the US government. Then that data was parceled out over many months, so it would remain in daily news cycles and continue to generate commentary over that time, staying in the public's mind.

Manning gave her data to Wikileaks, who posted it online in its entirety.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#342

Post by chris11 »

dtparr wrote: post #107
chollida1 wrote: post #11

It's been said that one person's freedom fighter is another's terrorist. > The files she copied also included about 250,000 diplomatic cables from American embassies around the world showing sensitive deals and conversations, dossiers detailing intelligence assessments of Guantánamo detainees held without trial, and a video of an American helicopter attack in Baghdad in two Reuters journalists were killed, among othe…

From prior discussions, both the DOD[0] and intelligence communities[1] have whistleblower programs. This inevitably leads to questions of whether the DOD/IC IGs can be trusted to investigate the DOD/IC without the forcing function of a public release, but the programs are in place. [0] - http://www.dodig.mil/programs/whistleblower/index.html [1] - https://www.dni.gov/index.php/about-this-site/contact-the-ig...

Snowden claimed he raised his concerns internally before coming out publicly, but the government denies that. I can't say who is correct, but I don't really trust government agencies to investigate themselves.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#343

Post by [deleted] »

dforrestwilson1 wrote: post #319
rthomas6 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have mixed feelings on this. Manning did commit a crime. They were entrusted with classified information and they released it on purpose. For all of the corruption and wrongdoing the release of those cables uncovered, didn't it also do things like give away the positions of some undercover agents? And harm US diplomatic relations with other countries? Look at it from the POV of the government: How could they not pu…

We live within a rules-based system. For Manning the rule was "We'll give you this security clearance, here are 100 classes about not spilling the things you know to anyone else." I too am troubled by the decision, but it does seem a bit out of whack with the total lack of punishment for the higher echelons of government. Lately it seems like the rules-based system we have been living under is cracking.

[deleted]

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#344

Post by maxander »

dnautics wrote: post #280
_delirium wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obama doesn't seem to completely disagree, since he didn't pardon her. He instead commuted the sentence from 35 years to 7 years' imprisonment. In my personal opinion that's still too long for the crime, but it's at least less completely insane than 35 years.

also being tortured in custody and put into solitary is much for the crime. I don't understand why Obama had to wait so long (couldn't he have, at least done it two or three months ago?) and why he's letting Chelsea stay in the pen till summer? Why not let her out more or less now?

Likely in the hopes that the story won't be as big a deal when she's actually released, and won't receive as much attention from potentially dangerous people.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#345

Post by Analemma_ »

zepto wrote: post #326
notahacker wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

convenient for him to agree to be extradited to a country that hasn't requested his extradition, not the one that has...

That can be changed

I know these days we're all treating it as an established fact that Sweden's extradition request for Assange is actually a cover for him to be further extradited to the United States, but it has never actually been proven.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#346

Post by rayiner »

nxc18 wrote: post #335
djsumdog wrote: post #32

Seven years is still a long time for whistle blowing. I'm glad to see she is still getting released though. It's important to note commuting the sentence is not a pardon. Chelsea will still have this conviction for the rest of her life. I know there is a lot of controversy with Manning compared to Wikileaks et. al. as far as not redacting documents or using a discriminating news source to filter them. Still, I oppose…

President Obama inherited all of those "bad" things you mention. The real problem with all of those things is that they are politically impossible to roll back, unless the perceived cost exceeds the perceived benefit. Until your best friend ends up on a kill list, that isn't going to happen. Imagine the following scenario: President Obama ends NSA spying, kills the drone problem, gets rid of kill lists (and presumabl…

> President Obama inherited all of those "bad" things you mention.

I agree Obama is doing what the American people want, but he did not inherit all of these programs. E.g. he substantially expanded the program for drone strikes: http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2016/01/12/reflecting-o...

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#347

Post by hendersoon »

hsod wrote: post #328
bishnu wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was no collateral damage to people in the field due to the Manning leaks, so I guess she figured it out.

From the NYT [0]: "The disclosures set off a frantic scramble as Obama administration officials sought to minimize any potential harm, including getting to safety some foreigners in dangerous countries who were identified as having helped American troops or diplomats. Prosecutors, however, presented no evidence that anyone was killed because of the leaks." So no one was killed, but it does seem to have put people at…

That's what they _said_, yes. Remember the rhetoric of the time-- distinguished government officials said both Manning and Snowden had "blood on their hands". Manning was in custody, but multiple senators and representatives called for Snowden to be assassinated.

In summary, I'm gonna need to see some actual proof.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#348

Post by sctb »

adventist wrote: post #174
and0 wrote: post #131

Off-topic but.. "they"? Manning isn't a group of people. Just say "she", it's really easy.

Well, if we want to be correct, he is not a she. Science.

Being correct cuts both ways, I'm afraid. If you'd like to offer an opinion on the matter we have to ask that it have some basis in reality. (This is not satisfied by uttering "Science.")

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#349

Post by _jordan_green »

lqdc13 wrote: post #141
nothrabannosir wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If Obama grants Manning clemency Assange will agree to US extradition despite clear unconstitutionality of DoJ (US Department of Justice) case," WikiLeaks wrote on Twitter. - https://www.yahoo.com/news/assange-agrees-extradition-us-rel... What is the difference between a commutation of sentence and a pardon? In the federal system, commutation of sentence and pardon are different forms of executive clemency, which is…

So let's pretend the sentence was reduced by a week instead. Would that still be the same thing?

That's a very interesting scenario, Mr Devil's Advocate

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#350

Post by etjossem »

sheraz wrote: post #317
etjossem wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chelsea Manning is a woman, and suffers from gender dysphoria. The Army has made quite a few mistakes in the aftermath of the leak, but "turning him into a 'woman'" is not one of them. If anything, they have no idea how to cope with someone who needs hormone replacement therapy or SRS.

No. Manning is not a woman. He is biological male who has been psychologically damaged from years of solitary confinement in prison (and probably before as well). That the US government paid for his "reassignment" is a tragedy on top of a tragedy. If you thought Manning needed suicide watch in prison, he's going to need it even more on the outside. See this from NIH: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21364939 Quote…

Manning has felt female since 2009 and possibly earlier. While on leave, she was incredibly comfortable with this gender identity, "trying to blend in as a bored woman looking for something interesting to do even though I was actually exhilarated." After the leaks (but before going to prison), she wrote: "I wouldn't mind going to prison for the rest of my life [for leaking information], or being executed so much, if it wasn't for the possibility of having pictures of me... plastered all over the world press... as [a] boy... [...] the CPU is not made for this motherboard..."

The absolute worst disservice we - as random onlookers - can do to people with gender dysphoria is to deny their sense of self.

Please try not to.

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