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Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

nytimes.com

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Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#301

Post by davidw »

kafkaesq wrote: post #281
davidw wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Manning dumped a whole slew of stuff without any checking or vetting or anything else. Some of the stuff I saw in relationship to Italy, for instance, was just diplomatic personnel airing "what they really thought" about Silvio Berlusconi. These comments are the kind of thing that didn't do anyone any good to have dumped in public.

Others would say -- and I would say also -- that in general, the public has benefited greatly from the disclosures in the more pertinent cable leaks. The thing to keep in mind, though, is that Manning didn't simply dump these to "the public"; she gave them to Assange and his people, who (after some falling out with each other, and a lapse in some basic security practices) managed to leak the passphrase to one of thei…

I'm not upset about the commutation of the sentence, but I do think that some punishment was just. I'm not enough of a legal scholar to argue how much might be appropriate, and I think we can all be pretty sure that she's not going to be in a position to dump that kind of data again, so there's not a risk of recidivism.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#302

Post by Natsu »

the_duke wrote: post #261
Natsu wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's understandable, but Manning's sentence has been unusually cruel in its execution, and unjust when compared to other people who did without being punished at all. See, e.g. the conduct that Colin Powell described in this email: https://wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/emailid/30324 [EDIT: click to view the PDF to find the actual content.]

Is there a list of emails that contain actual unfavorable/damning information?

Yes, although IMHO it's not a very good one. Some of these should be taken with salt -

http://www.mostdamagingwikileaks.com/

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#304

Post by [deleted] »

uxp wrote: post #239
barneygumble742 wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obama has said that the two cases are different in that Manning has gone through the legal system, sentenced, and serving time, whereas Snowden is in a country that doesn't have an extradition treaty with the US and hasn't been tried under the US legal system.

Specifically, one cannot be pardoned or have a sentence commuted of a crime one has not been convicted of. Snowden has not been convicted nor even tried for any crime. It's impossible for Obama to do anything about his situation.

[deleted]

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#306

Post by gozur88 »

bishnu wrote: post #66
chollida1 wrote: post #11

It's been said that one person's freedom fighter is another's terrorist. > The files she copied also included about 250,000 diplomatic cables from American embassies around the world showing sensitive deals and conversations, dossiers detailing intelligence assessments of Guantánamo detainees held without trial, and a video of an American helicopter attack in Baghdad in two Reuters journalists were killed, among othe…

There was no collateral damage to people in the field due to the Manning leaks, so I guess she figured it out.

Even assuming anyone could actually know this, the real damage is going forward. FSOs gather a lot of information just by talking to people, and people are going to be very circumspect if they think what they say will be repeated to the world with attribution. How much would you say to a friend or relative if you knew the first thing they'd do is put up a Facebook post with whatever you told them?

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#307

Post by 794CD01 »

colechristensen wrote: post #222
mhurron wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Classifying material should not be a way for the Government to hide corruption and wrongdoing. Whistle blowing is the only way that prevents that. Chelsea Manning acted on her conscience, which is the best we can expect anyone to do. The governments punishment was to prevent that happening again.

Snowden released a large volume of information to well qualified journalists who very carefully combed through the data to find the things most relevant and important for the American public to know. Information that was legitimately classified and had no whistleblowing value simply wasn't released. Manning released a large volume of information to the public en masse with no regard to it's whistleblowing value. Some…

>Snowden released a large volume of information to well qualified journalists who very carefully combed through the data to find the things most relevant and important for the American public to know. Information that was legitimately classified and had no whistleblowing value simply wasn't released.

This is a poor defense of Snowden's actions.

If it was given to a journalist who wasn't authorized to have that information, it was "released" in the only sense that is legally relevant, even if the general public doesn't have that information. Imagine saying what you just did, but replacing "journalist" with "KGB agent".

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#308

Post by hendersoon »

rbanffy wrote: post #269
colechristensen wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Snowden released a large volume of information to well qualified journalists who very carefully combed through the data to find the things most relevant and important for the American public to know. Information that was legitimately classified and had no whistleblowing value simply wasn't released. Manning released a large volume of information to the public en masse with no regard to it's whistleblowing value. Some…

> Manning released a large volume of information to the public en masse No. She leaked the documents to Wikileaks, who decided to publish them uncensored. She had no control over what Wikileaks would do. Other media outlets opted not to release information they considered dangerous. And, as @mhurron pointed out, there is no record of someone who was harmed by that information being released.

There is no record of any individual being physically harmed, but the leaked diplomatic cables were highly embarrassing, hurt the interests of the US, and were completely unjustified. They weren't exposing malfeasance or war crimes. They should not have been released.

Manning did it wrong, Snowden did it right.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#309

Post by hackuser »

jeffcore wrote: post #140
rosser wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Subsequent presidents can "un-pardon" people pardoned by previous presidents, so I have a hard time imagining that a commutation is somehow immune to that kind of thing. EDIT: See follow-ups. I may be mistaken here, and need to run to a meeting, so I can't dig any more now. EDIT 2: http://swampland.time.com/2008/12/25/more-on-pardons/ Relevant quote, "Ulysses S. Grant’s first clemency decision, on his third day in of…

The President doesn't have the power to unilaterally reimpose criminal consequences, which is what an unpardon would amount to. Instead, subsequent Presidents would have to argue the person was never really pardoned in the first place. George W. Bush did this with Isaac Toussie.

To be clear, Bush both pardoned and 'unpardoned' Toussie. He wasn't undoing a prior President's action.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#310

Post by egberts1 »

djsumdog wrote: post #32

Seven years is still a long time for whistle blowing. I'm glad to see she is still getting released though. It's important to note commuting the sentence is not a pardon. Chelsea will still have this conviction for the rest of her life. I know there is a lot of controversy with Manning compared to Wikileaks et. al. as far as not redacting documents or using a discriminating news source to filter them. Still, I oppose…

Except that Chelsea did not exercise the Whistleblower Act.
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