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Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

nytimes.com

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Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#181

Post by clashmoore »

mrb wrote: post #118
rthomas6 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have mixed feelings on this. Manning did commit a crime. They were entrusted with classified information and they released it on purpose. For all of the corruption and wrongdoing the release of those cables uncovered, didn't it also do things like give away the positions of some undercover agents? And harm US diplomatic relations with other countries? Look at it from the POV of the government: How could they not pu…

"How could they not punish Manning?" But she was punished. With 7 years that she already spent in jail. I don't think that reducing her sentence from 35 years to 7 years "encourage others to leak".

The book, "The Spy Who Couldn't Spell: A Dyslexic Traitor, an Unbreakable Code, and the FBI's Hunt for America's Stolen Secrets" by Yudhijit Bhattacharjee tells the story of an American intelligence worker who tried to pass off information to other governments just prior to Sept. 11th.

His motivation was money (selling his secrets for millions of dollars) and when he was caught, he was hoping to have his sentence reduced to 8 years so he may be with his family.

I think it would be encouraging to others to leak if the risk of making millions for their families to getting caught still allows them to live life if the punishment is anything less than life.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#182

Post by amyjess »

LordKano wrote: post #100

Commuting Manning's sentence without pardoning Snowden feels like politics to me. Manning's actions embarrassed the Bush administration so Obama will commute. Snowden's actions embarrassed the Obama administration so Obama won't pardon.

Manning was also being mistreated in prison, and that mistreatment would be very likely to get worse under a Trump administration. If Clinton won, a commutation would have been much less likely.

It's worth repeating that while Obama commuted her sentence, he didn't pardon her. What he did was say "she's been punished enough", and it's entirely consistent to say that Manning has been punished enough but Snowden hasn't.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#183

Post by pvg »

HerraBRE wrote: post #155
cm2187 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whistle blowing requires the knowledge of wrong doing, and exposing these wrong doings. As far as I am aware that guy leaked the data in bulk without looking at it, and without any knowledge of the US diplomacy, and the leaks didn't expose any major wrongdoing. Only some gory videos, that don't really teach us anything (everyone knows bombs make "collateral damages", the US army even maintains statistics on them). An…

The "collateral murder" video, which was based on Manning's leaks, is really quite chilling and definitely shows wrong doings that were then covered up by the government. There was more, but this was the most visual/memorable. I suggest you turn your scepticism to 11 and go watch it, see if you still feel the same way. https://collateralmurder.wikileaks.org/ (warning: if watching civilians, journalists and children b…

The incident had been reported and covered by the press, there was no 'government cover up'. The new bit was the video itself.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#184

Post by arbitrage »

vinay427 wrote: post #133
arbitrage wrote: post #109

She. Not they. Chelsea Manning identifies as female.

The singular "they" has been used for centuries and is currently somewhat socially acceptable, especially when the gender of the person in question is unknown or disputed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality_in_English#P...

The gender of the person in question is not unknown, and doesn't need to be disputed. Chelsea Manning identifies as female.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#185

Post by ceejayoz »

noobermin wrote: post #136
arbitrage wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chelsea Manning stood trial. Edward Snowden did not.

This has been discussed before. A President can pardon people for crimes they may be charged with in the future.

Yes, but politically, "we dropped her sentence to seven years in jail" is more tenable than "we pardoned someone who never stood trial nor served a day in jail".

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#186

Post by and0 »

ForrestN wrote: post #156
and0 wrote: post #131

Off-topic but.. "they"? Manning isn't a group of people. Just say "she", it's really easy.

I don't know what Chelsea Manning's pronoun preferences are, but I have plenty of friends who prefer "they," which also happens to be the gender-neutral singular pronoun in English. For example: "Someone came by asking for me earlier? Did they give you a name?" Many people who do not identify as male or female prefer "they."

That's a valid point, but if you don't know enough about Chelsea Manning's recent history or prison sentence to know her preferred pronoun (or even read the article where it's made very clear) why even comment?

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#187

Post by _delirium »

kzrdude wrote: post #154
_delirium wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obama doesn't seem to completely disagree, since he didn't pardon her. He instead commuted the sentence from 35 years to 7 years' imprisonment. In my personal opinion that's still too long for the crime, but it's at least less completely insane than 35 years.

The military justice has a possibility for parole release before the term, unlike U.S. federal civil justice. So there was always the possibility of a such release. https://www.emptywheel.net/2013/08/21/bradley-mannings-sente...

Thanks, I didn't realize the military had retained parole after the rest of the federal government abolished it. If I'm reading the link correctly, 10 years would have been the minimum time served in this case. If it were likely that parole would be granted at the earliest point of eligibility (would it be? I have no idea), this commutation then amounts to knocking 3 years off the minimum sentence. Which is not nothing, but less dramatic than the headline 28 years.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#188

Post by acalderaro »

rthomas6 wrote: post #72
djsumdog wrote: post #32

Seven years is still a long time for whistle blowing. I'm glad to see she is still getting released though. It's important to note commuting the sentence is not a pardon. Chelsea will still have this conviction for the rest of her life. I know there is a lot of controversy with Manning compared to Wikileaks et. al. as far as not redacting documents or using a discriminating news source to filter them. Still, I oppose…

I have mixed feelings on this. Manning did commit a crime. They were entrusted with classified information and they released it on purpose. For all of the corruption and wrongdoing the release of those cables uncovered, didn't it also do things like give away the positions of some undercover agents? And harm US diplomatic relations with other countries? Look at it from the POV of the government: How could they not pu…

Yea, from the POV of the government having the public realize all the illegal, unethical and irresponsible things you've been doing with their tax dollars would be absolutely terrible. Someone may end up getting jail time - or even worse - lose their reelection!

/s

Anyone who is able to condemn Manning would also condemn the soldiers of Hitler's army who chose to disobey orders to kill Jews because it would have been against the law.

Just because something is illegal doesn't mean it's wrong. And if our government didn't engage in illegal activity (like torture, political uprisings, wire tapping) then perhaps people like Manning wouldn't have to leak information that could compromise a few undercover agents.

In this case, the benefits far outweigh the costs. Find me a politician or soldier who got jail time for committing acts of torture in Baghdad and then we can talk about penalizing Manning.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#189

Post by grzm »

themartorana wrote: post #165
karmacondon wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By definition, a whistle blower must reveal evidence of the commission of a crime. The term does not extend to "actions by the government that I disagree with" or "things that violate my personal interpretations of the Constitution" If you misuse the term, you make it more difficult for legitimate whistle blowers to get the protection they deserve.

Murder, torture, blanket domestic spying etc., are not (or have not recently been) considered crimes when the federal government is the actor. The line isn't so clear.

When they're given those labels, they are. The question is whether the actions are accurately described by those particular words. That's why phrases like "enhanced interrogation techniques" are employed, to make a distinction between that and torture, for example.

(Note, I'm not arguing that I think any particular actions are or are not criminal. I'm too ignorant of the details to meaningfully speak one way or the other.)

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