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Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

bbc.com

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Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#301

Post by youngtaff »

corney91 wrote: post #151
lucozade wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Should we agree with the quote or find it wrong in hindsight? What Thatcher was talking about was literally a single market i.e. where one could buy and sell goods without tariff and other protectionist restrictions. What we have now with the EU is most definitely not that. We have free movement of people, a much expanded EU with qualified majority voting, significant social (as against economic) legislation, and t…

>We have free movement of people, A single market includes the free movement of labour, as well as goods and services. Hence, restricting immigration is equivalent to leaving the single market. If we're to have tarriff-free trade with the EU but barriers on migration, that's surely a "protectionist restriction" on British jobs.

EU has free movement of labour and goods but does it have free movement of services I didn't think it did (that's a genuine rather than rhetorical question)

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#302

Post by vixen99 »

JohnStrange wrote: post #53
aaron-lebo wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was it for real or isn't that just a politician trying to sell something (which it sounds remarkably like)? One of the reasons Brexit is happening (at least it's argued) is due to bureaucracy. Should we agree with the quote or find it wrong in hindsight?

No way. Brexit was primarily caused by xenophobia in combination with lack of education about how the EU works. Most people don't even know how many unanimous votes of all member states were necessary to get to the contemporary EU in the first place. Had there been a simple test of 10 questions about how the EU works, drawn from 100 previously published questions, that needed to be answered in order to qualify as a v…

Actually you don't know at all how Brexit was 'primarily caused' if indeed there was a primary cause. Plenty of cosmopolitan EU-savvy intellectuals supported 'Leave' with excellent arguments. An opinion is one thing; the pretense of having a penetrating analysis to the extent of proving it with a virtual quiz plus results (wow - it agrees with your prediction!) is another.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#303

Post by vixen99 »

gotchange wrote: post #49
emptyfile wrote: post #5

"It's your job, the job of business, to gear yourselves up to take the opportunities which a single market of nearly 320 million people will offer. Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people. Bigger than Japan. Bigger than…

Wow, this is coming from the woman herself, the icon of modern conservatism in the 20th century. Capitalism proves to be not self-sustainable and now it's self-cannibalizing which is a good thing as we move gradually to the next stage in history according to Karl Marx to socialism and away from capitalism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx's_theory_of_history#Stage...

Read him by all means; he had one or two interesting ideas. Sadly though, you will find that Marx did not even understand how wealth was created which is a bit of problem when you're creating grand economic plans for the rest of us.

I'd remind you that the last 20 years has seen the greatest reduction in world poverty ever in the history of mankind. That was achieved by people trading with each other not by socialism.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#304

Post by youngtaff »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #96
coldtea wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is such a pity. European Union is (was ?) an incredible achievement. I don't think we realize exactly how improbable uniting Europe around a common destiny and a shared set of values is. Only we never done that. We just allowed for easy border access, united a few laws, and had central bureaucrats and heavier countries step on the throats of lesser ones.

I'm from one of those "lesser" countries - Greece. I can assure you that nobody "stepped on our throat". For years we thrived as part of the EU, until the economic crisis hit and messed it all up. The Germans actually tried to help, in the way they thought was best, and despite appearances of heavy-handedness, nobody tried to force us to leave, which would have been the end of us. If you remember what happened a coup…

The Greek bailout wasn't a bailout of Greece, it was bailout of the German and French banks…

The losses of Greek and French banks were socialised onto the Greek state by the terms of the bailout so the Greek people suffered rather than people who'd invested in the bank losing.

Now Greece did over borrow but when banks lend they take a risk and sometimes that risk doesn't pay off.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#305

Post by youngtaff »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #96
coldtea wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is such a pity. European Union is (was ?) an incredible achievement. I don't think we realize exactly how improbable uniting Europe around a common destiny and a shared set of values is. Only we never done that. We just allowed for easy border access, united a few laws, and had central bureaucrats and heavier countries step on the throats of lesser ones.

I'm from one of those "lesser" countries - Greece. I can assure you that nobody "stepped on our throat". For years we thrived as part of the EU, until the economic crisis hit and messed it all up. The Germans actually tried to help, in the way they thought was best, and despite appearances of heavy-handedness, nobody tried to force us to leave, which would have been the end of us. If you remember what happened a coup…

The Greek bailout wasn't a bailout of Greece, it was bailout of the German and French banks…

The losses of Greek and French banks were socialised onto the Greek state by the terms of the bailout so the Greek people suffered rather than people who'd invested in the bank losing.

Now Greece did over borrow but when banks lend they take a risk and sometimes that risk doesn't pay off.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#306

Post by dogma1138 »

ionised wrote: post #294
laingc wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to write a thesis here, but hopefully a bullet-pointed list will suffice: * The EU is not only undemocratic in the sense that the powerful European Commission is unelected, but is in fact antidemocratic in the sense that one generally has to have lost a democratic election in one's own country to be appointed to it. * The EU places an enormous regulatory drain on its member states, issuing a stifling num…

Weird that you as a German actually want data protection laws relaxed. I would have though given your history you would want more of it. I certainly do.

German data protection laws do not offer as much privacy as you think, not when it comes to the state in fact many of them mandate data collection and retention requirements even when it's not needed or wanted.

They also offer very little visibility to what is collected.

Sure data cannot be easily shared or exported but this doesn't increase privacy as much as you think of at all, in fact it can hinder it.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#307

Post by omegaworks »

emptyfile wrote: post #236
digi_owl wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thing is, and it took me all too long to learn this, Schengen is not what enables foreign workers to enter another EU member nation. It just makes it easier. The Brexit yes came overwhelmingly form the old industrial areas of UK. From the towns and such that has seen their quality of life stagnate or deteriorate while the jobs gets done by foreigners that come by the busload. Damn it, i don't live in UK but i have se…

All EU's fault obviously. Minimum wage, union nagotiated wages, restricting benefits for non working immigrants, IDs to combat illegal immigration, unused emergency brakes for immigration, none of that matters it's the damn EU's fault and most definitely not the UK government. I promised myself I will only post one comment and not get dragged into any discussions so I this is my last one.

Wherever a scapegoat is needed it always seems to be the foreigners and immigrants first to be fingered.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#308

Post by sangnoir »

youngtaff wrote: post #299
gonvaled wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Balkans were not in the EU. The EU gives economic incentives to its members not to go to war. It does not magically prevent wars all around the world.

The original quote was "The EU seems to be pretty effective at preventing wars within Europe." Last time I checked the Balkans were within Europe! Look I voted to remain and I'm probably going to leave the UK as I don't want to live in the UK post Brexit. That said there's as many crazy claims for the success of the EU as there were for the UK leaving. As an institution the EU is very much out of touch with the needs…

When someone says "Europe" in the context of the EU, I thought it would be obvious that they are referring to the member states. How would the EU prevent non-members from wars? That does not make sense.

The UK was never really committed to the EU and yet it got special treatment time and time again. I say this as an EU outsider.

The "common people" usually want all upsides with no downsides. No one can deliver that, buy the populist politicians depend on it and promise people the moon (see "closed borders and common market"). Good luck with the Tories and IndyRef 2.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#309

Post by SixSigma »

headmelted wrote: post #166
SixSigma wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An unelected PM She was elected by her party, just like Cameron was.

Not the same. While on the surface this is correct, Cameron subsequently ran as the face of the party in a general election before assuming office, thereby receiving a public mandate (albeit a weak one first time round due to the hung parliament). May did not.

That assumption is just that.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#310

Post by petecox »

senorjazz wrote: post #48
johndunne wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many here in the UK might actually be hoping for just that!! Fingers crossed it doesn't turn into a mess!

I think you are onto something personally. Many in the UK had an inflated view of the importance / strength of the country harking back to the empire (admittedly final days pre WWII). Which was in fact more todo with to being close to the US who propped the country up and kept it at the top table, because we would always agree as opposed to the actual merit of the country. That combined with an island mentality and a…

An Anglo free-migratory superstate combining Canada, NZ and AUS has been proposed to fill the shortage of labour once your continental plumbers leave.

As an Aussie, I have no desire to return to the island my ancestors fled 160 years ago but if it enables me to retire to a piece of land in Quebec or the Maritimes, I'm all for it!

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